Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Minister Polarius on November 14, 2010, 11:35:47 AM
-
Is Goliath infinite CBN autoblock forever if the attacker has Wall of Protection up?
-
Goliath (P)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 10 / 10 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Return all Heroes in battle to territory (except giant-slayers). Opponent may present a new Hero. Negate all band, draw, and play abilities. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Giant (Human), Philistia • Verse: I Samuel 17:44 • Availability: Promotional cards (2010 Regional Tournament)
No. He doesn't target their heroes to enter battle, but rather lets the opponent do something with their heroes that they normally wouldn't be able to.
-
I just wanted to see the pic. ;D
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fredemptionreg.com%2FREG%2FLinkedDocuments%2FGoliath%2520%28P%29.gif&hash=a7c998b27cd70f19d71405cf0c661853ff57181d)
-
Wait....What?!?!
Why is there a deer sticking out of his pants?
:scratch:
That's weird.... :D
-
Goliath (P)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 10 / 10 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Return all Heroes in battle to territory (except giant-slayers). Opponent may present a new Hero. Negate all band, draw, and play abilities. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Giant (Human), Philistia • Verse: I Samuel 17:44 • Availability: Promotional cards (2010 Regional Tournament)
No. He doesn't target their heroes to enter battle, but rather lets the opponent do something with their heroes that they normally wouldn't be able to.
Disagree.
-
Wait....What?!?!
Why is there a deer sticking out of his pants?
:scratch:
That's weird.... :D
It's not a deer. Goliath is simply missing his other identifier as a marsupial.
-
Goliath (P)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 10 / 10 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Return all Heroes in battle to territory (except giant-slayers). Opponent may present a new Hero. Negate all band, draw, and play abilities. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Giant (Human), Philistia • Verse: I Samuel 17:44 • Availability: Promotional cards (2010 Regional Tournament)
No. He doesn't target their heroes to enter battle, but rather lets the opponent do something with their heroes that they normally wouldn't be able to.
Disagree.
Since the opponent presents the new hero, Wall of Protection does not affect Goliath's SA.
-
Goliath's SA is what's bringing the Hero into battle. Heroes can't just waltz into battle mid-battle for no reason.
-
Goliath's SA is what's bringing the Hero into battle. Heroes can't just waltz into battle mid-battle for no reason.
Disagree.
-
i could see it going either way.
-
Goliath's SA is what's bringing the Hero into battle. Heroes can't just waltz into battle mid-battle for no reason.
Disagree.
Goliath's not bringing the Hero into battle? What is? Midichloreans?
-
so if this works then i guess older stuff like outburst of anger/temptation does as well.
-
Goliath's not bringing the Hero into battle? What is?
"Opponent may" is an action taken by the other player. Goliath kicks the first heroes out of battle. I'm sure he would rather not have to face anyone else, but there is a condition to his ability that allows the other player to take an action if they want (or can).
Goliath opens the door, but your opponent has to walk through it.
Midichloreans?
I've always wondered how to spell that.
-
Um, so cards that say "opponent may" don't actually target the "opponent may" stuff? So if I'm Protected from Conversion on opponent's cards and you play Proclamation, I can still Convert instead? And if my deck is Protected from Discard on opponent's cards when someone plays Assyria Does Dastardly, I can still Discard from my deck instead?
-
You'll have to post abilities because I have no idea what you're talking about.
-
I would agree with YourMathTeacher, Goliath says Opponent may present a new blocker, suggesting the opponent is presenting it (thereby getting around Wall) however I can see Minister Polarius's side as well which is saying that it is Goliath's special ability that is allowing it to happen (thereby should be blocked by Wall).
But then again it would give a reason not to put wall in a deck (aside from better options) making Jael/Ashael choose the blockers slightly better.
So I'm ok with either side.
-
I'm going to side with YMT, although i would prefer it the other way
-
I agree with YMT. On the other hand, if Polarius were correct, Lion Dwelling with the Calf just got way stronger.
-
Goliath (P)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 10 / 10 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Return all Heroes in battle to territory (except giant-slayers). Opponent may present a new Hero. Negate all band, draw, and play abilities. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Giant (Human), Philistia • Verse: I Samuel 17:44 • Availability: Promotional cards (2010 Regional Tournament)
No. He doesn't target their heroes to enter battle, but rather lets the opponent do something with their heroes that they normally wouldn't be able to.
Disagree.
Disagree with your disagree. Why? Because he's from 1st Sammmmmmmuel.
-
Assyria Conquers Israel:
"Discard a Site or O.T. Fortress. Opponent may Discard X cards from top of deck instead."
So if you have JT out, you can still Discard to instead?
Centurion's Proclamation:
"Capture an EC. Opponent may Convert it instead."
If that's played on Judas, can you still Convert him?
-
Im not sure if The Darkness vs. WoP ruling has anything to do with this.
Wall of Protection (Ap)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Place this site in your territory. No character in your territory may be brought into battle by an opponent. • Play As: Protect characters in your territory from opponents' banding abilities. • Identifiers: Play to territory. • Verse: I Kings 9:15 • Availability: Apostles booster packs (Ultra Rare)
The Darkness (AW)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Place an Evil Character from hand face down here. If an opponent begins a rescue attempt and chooses a blocker (or is unblocked), you may reveal this evil character. Blocking player may add it to the battle. Otherwise return it face down. • Play As: Place an Evil Character from hand face down here. At the beginning of battle, if an opponent begins a rescue attempt and chooses a blocker (or is unblocked), you may reveal this Evil Character. Blocking player may add to battle the Evil Character else return it face down. The Darkness may hold one Evil Character. • Identifiers: Play to territory. • Verse: John 3:19 • Availability: Angel Wars booster packs (Ultra Rare)
Of course, I dont even remember the ruling so... ;D
-
Assyria Conquers Israel:
"Discard a Site or O.T. Fortress. Opponent may Discard X cards from top of deck instead."
So if you have JT out, you can still Discard to instead?
Centurion's Proclamation:
"Capture an EC. Opponent may Convert it instead."
If that's played on Judas, can you still Convert him?
I would say yes on ACI, but no on Judas. Judas' SA protects from opponents' cards. JT protects from opponents' actions. There is a difference.
----------------------
All of this is moot anyway. I had no idea WoP had a Play As:
Wall of Protection (Ap)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Place this site in your territory. No character in your territory may be brought into battle by an opponent. • Play As: Protect characters in your territory from opponents' banding abilities. • Identifiers: Play to territory. • Verse: I Kings 9:15 • Availability: Apostles booster packs (Ultra Rare)
Goliath's ability is not a banding ability.
Now, I already know you're going to refute any Play As from the REG, but the original WoP's SA protects from opponents' actions just like JT, which is not like Judas.
-
I never heard when that Play As got added...and it should really be errata because that completely changes Choose the Blocker situations.
-
Wow, that is quite a change.
-
I never heard when that Play As got added...and it should really be errata because that completely changes Choose the Blocker situations.
so we are supposed to acknowledge and use the Play As?
-
No, because it's really errata. Disregard any errata disguised as play-as.
Also, YMT, that's just silly. And very, very contrary to the way rulings have been made for a long time and intuitive reading of cards and rules.
-
I always thought WoP also protected you from side battles....
-
I always thought WoP also protected you from side battles....
It does. Not sure why the Play As was added...it severely limits what WoP is supposed to do, and has been ruled to do for years. It stops any action that would force a character in your opponent's territory into battle, including banding, CtB, and side battles.
As to the Goliath question, forced drawing was ruled to be allowed while JT is up (so that Mayhem doesn't make a JT player have no hand) so I would rule the same way here: since your opponent is the one to take the action of putting the character into battle, just like it is his action of drawing the cards, I would say that he is allowed to do that.
Also, I think YMT is right on actually. Centurion's Proclamation is a convert ability on an opponent's card, and Judas says:
Protect this evil character from convert and discard abilities on opponent’s cards while he remains in play. Cannot be negated.
What rulings are you referring to, Polarius? It would help to know, just in case this topic needs to be more closely examined by the elders. I thought we had solved issues like this (opponent's actions on your cards) when JT was changed to a protect.
-
Ok, so bad example on Judas, and you know full well what I mean. Blocking with a character that's protected from Conversion but not Capture, can you Convert him anyway when Proclamation is played?
The ruling I'm talking about is Dove v. Protected/Immune cards. Now Dove can suddenly Discard a Protected character in battle?
Also, I thought the reason forced drawing still worked is because of the wording on JT (drawing not being considered "removed from deck" for Redemption purposes), not because of a universal loophole on Protect that makes it stop Protecting if the card has "opponent must/may" wording on it.
-
Also, I thought the reason forced drawing still worked is because of the wording on JT (drawing not being considered "removed from deck" for Redemption purposes), not because of a universal loophole on Protect that makes it stop Protecting if the card has "opponent must/may" wording on it.
This was my understanding as well.
-
Also, I thought the reason forced drawing still worked is because of the wording on JT (drawing not being considered "removed from deck" for Redemption purposes), not because of a universal loophole on Protect that makes it stop Protecting if the card has "opponent must/may" wording on it.
This was my understanding as well.
I was not aware of that ruling. So, "drawing" a card does not remove it from the deck? I'm not sure I would agree that this is more intuitive than protecting against player actions.
-
Well, technically, the opponent isn't removing it.
-
Well, technically, the opponent isn't removing it.
That would have been the previous understanding of why forced draws still work, based on player actions. This new ruling (which I have no idea how "new" it really is) would say that player actions are irrelevant. JT protects from opponents' SAs, but forced draws are still allowed since they are now defined as not actually removing a card from the deck.
To me that is more confusing rather than less confusing. But, then again, I do have a few screws loose.
-
Either way is a little confusing. But I believe it's far more expedient and better for the game to simply exclude "drawing" from "removing from deck," just like Eve is totally different than Susanna, rather than making "opponent may/must" get around all protection.