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If I start a rescue attempt, get blocked by Goliath, add a blue hero, have initiative, play the long day,  lose the battle, and start a new rescue attempt, does Goliath still negate all band, draw and play abilities in the second rescue attempt?

No. It is a seperate battle phase, much like Grapes of Wrath. However, remember that the same character cant enter battle more than once per turn.

Okay, thanks. One more question. If the blue character is Soldier of God and I play Warrior's spear in the first battle and put a lost soul in play, does warrior's spear get discarded before the second battle if I play stillness to withdraw from the first battle?

It is still discarded. If you get a lost soul, it is discarded at the end of that battle.

I don't believe that is true. If he played Stillness, then Warrior's Spear is no longer in play at the end of battle, and therefore cannot be targeted for discard.

Quote from: wyatt_marcum on December 19, 2012, 09:58:51 AM

It is still discarded. If you get a lost soul, it is discarded at the end of that battle.

I don't believe that is true. If he played Stillness, then Warrior's Spear is no longer in play at the end of battle, and therefore cannot be targeted for discard.

Disagree.  It has the same result as a Survivor being pulled out of any location if its ability triggers and was not prevented.  If he is removed from game, discarded, or even shuffled by something like Two Bears, his capture to opponent's LOB would still occur.  By this same logic, an active WS that has the effect trigger completes and is discarded.

Quote from: Redoubter on December 19, 2012, 12:22:12 AM

Quote from: RTSmaniac on December 18, 2012, 11:36:41 PM

No. It is a seperate battle phase, much like Grapes of Wrath. However, remember that the same unique character cant enter battle more than once per turn.

FTFY
(note, generic characters can enter battle any number of times per turn)

Unless the rule was changed, generic characters have to hit deck before they can enter battle a second time.

That was changed before last season.  See ruling HERE.

I would like an Elder verification of Redoubter's other statement.

Quote from: Chris on December 20, 2012, 07:53:33 PM

I'm not convinced that that's a full rule change. Can an Elder can confirm for me?

Which ruling are you talking about, the generics entering battle more than once in a turn one?  I'm just guessing that from how the conversation proceeded, but that has been the rule since Gabe posted it here on 8/14/11.  It has been used by Elders to make rulings many times since and is official, which is why it was added to the list of official rule changes.  Note that this thread had more rulings than that one, and was for the changes prior to the season.

I was referring to that rule. As far as I know, the rule remains that generics must first hit deck. That's how I've seen it ruled (though admittedly I have no idea if an Elder was involved) multiple times on the forums since then. It's possible that I simply somehow missed this, but all the same, I would like to get verification, as I have been under the impression that for the same copy of a generic character to be put in battle more than once, it must first hit the deck.

Except it doesn't necessarily debunk that a generic character must hit deck first, it only says they can enter battle more than once. A detail like that might simply have been forgotten in the post. This is why I'm just asking for Elder confirmation.

I still don't think these are the same scenario. AS says "if defeated," which means it is triggered as soon as it is defeated, working similar to an instead. But Warrior's Spear says "after battle." By the time WS tries to target, the battle is over and Warrior's Spear is gone. I don't see why this would be ruled the same. This is more like an Archer scenario.

See the ruling on Warrior's Spear here.  To repeat what Byron said:

Did the spear enter battle?  yes
Was it negated (directly or indirectly)? no
Then it works.

It does not matter whatsoever where the card ends up.  Your statement that this is like an Archer is accurate, but it actually helps to prove my point.  In the Archer combos, you interrupt the after-battle effect and then end the battle, and as the ability was interrupted and could not complete, it does not go off.  However, if you were to play Archer, play 2k Horses and decide not to interrupt before playing an end the battle, regardless of where the Archer ended up as a result of that card he would be removed from game, period.

The difference is that the ability was never interrupted or negated.  If you do not undo or prevent an ability, then it completes regardless of where the card ends up.  This is consistent with the WS ruling, DOJ ruling, Survivor ruling, PG Panic Demon ruling, and all general rulings on the completion of abilities.

tl;dr If an ability wasn't stopped, it completes no matter where cards end up.

To repeat what Byron said:

Did the spear enter battle?  yes
Was it negated (directly or indirectly)? no
Then it works.

Warrior's Spear is still in play in that scenario, so I still do not see the connection to this scenario. Could an Elder please post? There is really nothing that Redoubter can say that will convince me otherwise (no offense to Redoubter). We are at an impasse and need third party Elder input.

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on December 21, 2012, 12:42:50 PM

Yes the ability on Warrior's Spear activates and tries to discard itself, that's not the argument, the argument is whether or not the warrior's spear can target itself for discard when it is in a hand.

I think the key here is that it targets itself at the time it is activated (at which time it is in play).  Then there is a trigger (after battle) for when to actually complete the effect.

I think that Redoubter is correct that (assuming the discard is NOT interrupted/negated) then it will happen when the trigger happens (after battle) regardless of where the card is at that time.

But cards also reset in hands, that means that once it is in your hand it isn't the warrior's spear that targeted itself in battle, it is just a card in your hand (as far as the game state is concerned), of course I could be wrong about how the resetting in hand works.

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on December 21, 2012, 05:24:09 PM

But cards also reset in hands, that means that once it is in your hand it isn't the warrior's spear that targeted itself in battle, it is just a card in your hand (as far as the game state is concerned), of course I could be wrong about how the resetting in hand works.

We already know that survivor (in a similar situation) gets captured after being discarded, even though he would reset in discard just as he would if he was returned to hand (and he gets captured from there too), so no, the resetting doesn't stop the ability.

Like Drrek said, resetting of cards does not affect cards with similar rulings, which would extend to this card.  Going through a location that resets a card does many things to it (returns it to face-value, removes counters, resets 'may be used X times' counts, etc.).  However, going through these locations does not end the abilities on the cards.  In addition to the Survivor and PG Panic Demon rulings, you can see similar logic in the AUtO + Provisions ruling.  Even though AUtO is sent to deck, which 'resets' it in ways I explained, the CTB part of Provisions still kicks in at the appropriate point.  He's not in play, he's in a 'reset' location, and yet it still completes.

The whole idea is that, one an ability has been activated and is not prevented, that ability will complete, regardless of where the actual card on which the ability was ends up, unless the card is interrupted (and cannot reactivate, such as in the case of an end-the-battle combo) or negated.

On a side note, I don't take offense YMT   In all threads referenced, there was no explicit ruling on this exact situation, just an extension of other rulings, and you have every right to not be convinced without an Elder response 

I've taken the discussion on Warrior's Spear and other examples to the other side of the board. I'm not clear on Prof U's response and the logic behind his conclusion. We will iron it out there and let you know the outcome.

Thanks for your patience while we talked this through.

The default for all targets is "in play". That means that if Warrior's Spear is targeted for discard at the end of battle and returned to hand during battle, when the discard ability resolves at the end of battle the spear is no longer a legal target (it's not in play) so it is not discarded from hand.

I understand that cards like Assyrian Survivor, Potpher's Wife, Panic Demon (pale green), War Officer and Recruiting Officer may have caused confusion and even seem inconsistent to some people. To clarify the how and why those cards work as they do we are adding a statement to the entry for Instead in the REG. This may not be the finalized statement but it will be something similar to this:

Abilities that describe an end of battle condition (ex: If defeated, If character defeats, If rescue attempt fails, etc.) followed by instructions about what to do when that condition is met have an implied "instead" causing the described effect to replace other effects when the condition is met.

I do love that we are trying to get a clear, concise rule that is also in the REG, but I am having some trouble seeing what makes Warrior's Spear and Archer's "end of battle" condition different from the rest.

Warrior's Spear
Discard the top card of opponent's deck.  If it is a Lost Soul, put it in play instead, and discard this card after battle.

Assyrian Archer
You may discard a Hero in a territory.  If you do, discard this Evil Character after battle.  May band to an Assyrian.

Assyrian Survivor
Protected from discard abilities on opponent's cards.  If defeated, capture to opponent's Land of Bondage.  Cannot be interrupted.

Each of these has an end of battle condition, also triggered when the card is presented.  When Survivor is presented, there is an ability waiting to go off if the condition is met.  When Archer is presented, there is an ability waiting to go off if the condition is met.  Both are resolved at "end of battle" and meet the qualifications you put in your rules clarification.

To be clear, what is making them different for rules purposes?

Gabe explained that in the last paragraph. Assyrian Survivor is treated as an "instead." The defeat (trigger) is "insteaded."

Whereas, the other two are not "insteaded." They are delayed triggers that have nothing to target.

I know Gabe's post says it may not be the final wording, and that is what I'm focusing on.  I'm understanding the ruling he is putting forth, and I'm not arguing that, I am stating that it needs to be clearer, more than "end of battle condition".  To me, that reads as anything that completes at the end of battle.  That's not what Gabe is getting at, I understand that, which is why I'm saying that the terminology being used may not be the clearest and does not differentiate these abilities to me.  And IMO, if we're going to make a ruling, it should be as clear as possible when it goes into the new REG.

I like "outcome" because that seems to me to be the main difference between Survivor and Warrior's Spear.  Survivor's SA is based on an outcome (defeat) that happens to be calculated at a certain time (after battle).  But Warrior's Spear SA is based on timing (after battle) which makes it seem more like a trigger than an instead.

Of course that does lead to questions about the archer though since he uses the same "after battle" language that sounds more like timing than outcomes.

I like that better, personally, and it makes it clearer Thanks Gabe.

Of course that does lead to questions about the archer though since he uses the same "after battle" language that sounds more like timing than outcomes.

I had thought that Archers and WS were both the "timing" ability, and would not be able to be targeted if they were out of play at the end of battle.  Gabe's ruling post seems to specifically avoid mentioning the Archers when he is mentioning these "outcome" cards, so I was assuming that Archers are not one of them.  By the wording of their abilities, they are more like WS than AS.  Can we get that clarified?

Well done, Elders!  From reading the thread it appears the confusion lies only in the fact that the outcome of determining defeat occurs at a specific time, (sort of like "when a Hobbit eats elevensies").

Abilities that describe an end of battle condition (ex: If defeated, If character defeats, If rescue attempt fails, etc.) followed by instructions about what to do when that condition is met have an implied "instead" causing the described effect to replace other effects when the condition is met.

Alright, so my brother (being the jerk he is) pointed out that there is, technically, a HUGE problem with the rule that they are insteaded.

Let's say I band my Spirit of Temptation to your Assyrian Survivor (very logical and smart play).  Now, I play Suicidal Swine Stampede (Remove all Evil Characters in battle from the game to shuffle all Lost Souls in your territory into owners' deck).  At this point (if no doms are played), battle goes to resolution.  Now, Survivor has an Outcome ability go off that insteads the removal.  It never happened.  And since it never happened, Suicidal Swine Stampede's cost was not paid (because it is that card that caused the defeat, not battle resolution).  As the cost was not paid, the benefit is undone.  Return all of those souls to the LoB (potentially from each deck), and then...does the hero rescue a soul?  I think so?

To solve this (and other problems not yet discovered), perhaps an instead during battle resolution does not affect anything played beforehand?  Or would this just work as I described, and you'd be a sad panda if you made this mistake?  Not sure?  Help

Based on the REG PDF definition of "defeat", Assyrian Survivor is not being defeated in that scenario so his instead wouldn't trigger.

Hmm, it would seem so based off the REGs definition, however the last time this came up, it seemed that being removed from game was considered defeat.

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/assyrian-survivor-and-suicidal-swine-stampede/

What is the current REG definition of "defeat?" I was under the impression that you could only be "defeated" by an opposing alignment, which would mean AS would not be "insteaded."

The ruling had been that being discarded, captured, RFG, etc. all were instances of "defeat".  And as Drrek pointed out, this exact scenario has been ruled on in the past, which is where the ruling question in my post comes from.

If the ruling has changed, can we get some clarification on that?

There is an on-going discussion on the playtester side regarding the definitions of "defeat" both for Heroes and Evil Characters. We are getting close to announcing it, but there are a couple things we just want to make sure we have ironed out first.