Author Topic: Goliath (Read 6113 times)

Nameless · « **Reply #50 on:** June 04, 2011, 07:12:02 PM »

maybe it means that he was from Philistia

SomeKittens · « **Reply #51 on:** June 04, 2011, 07:15:57 PM »

Quote from: Nameless on June 04, 2011, 07:12:02 PM

maybe it means that he was from Philistia

Yes. Thus, he's a Philistine.

Egyptian · « **Reply #52 on:** June 08, 2011, 11:46:21 AM »

Guys I don't post that much anymore except when making suggestions for new cards but I felt compelled to say something here.

So let me get this straight.

We make a card (Goliath) that throws most heroes out of battle non-negatably and says (also non-negatably) that OPPONENT may present a new hero (in battle), but in our very next breath we say that well, wait a minute, the opponent really CAN'T present a new hero because his OWN Wall of Protection somehow stops him from doing so, the nearly impenetrable but nonetheless very scholarly explanation of this being given above.

How do I explain this thread to a beginning to average player (who's not a pro - maybe even a beginning adult player......gasp)?

"Hey Bob, Wall not only protects you from him, it now protects you from you!" :-)

Can anyone see how goofy this is?

This sort of thing is why I cringe when I think about trying to teach new players this game.

Let's figure out how to correct Goliath so a player's Wall of Protection does NOT interfere with that player's ability to present HIS OWN characters in battle - and yes, I'll risk it - so that I don't go NUTS trying to explain this to my 6-year-old who desperately wants a Goliath Promo... (or to my friends at Church who are interested in the game).....and I leave it to the Redemption attorneys to figure out how this should be done.

Josh · « **Reply #53 on:** June 08, 2011, 11:58:20 AM »

Quote from: Egyptian on June 08, 2011, 11:46:21 AM

We make a card (Goliath) that throws most heroes out of battle non-negatably and says (also non-negatably) that OPPONENT may present a new hero (in battle), but in our very next breath we say that well, wait a minute, the opponent really CAN'T present a new hero because his OWN Wall of Protection somehow stops him from doing so, the nearly impenetrable but nonetheless very scholarly explanation of this being given above.

How do I explain this thread to a beginning to average player (who's not a pro - maybe even a beginning adult player......gasp)?

Simple. Does your son understand the difference between Game Rules and Special Abilities? If not, Goliath provides a good example to explain it.

If Goliath's ability did not have the "Opponent may present a new hero" clause in his ability, then the opponent would not add a second hero to battle, since Game Rules only allow you to attack once per turn. Since it is Goliath's ability that allows a second hero to be added, the hero is being added by Special Ability. And since Goliath is the opponent's character (from your Wall of Protection's perspective), it is the opponent that is trying to add a hero to battle, not you. And this is precisely what Wall of Protection protects against. You may get to choose the target, but it is still Goliath that does the "adding to battle".

Josh · « **Reply #54 on:** June 08, 2011, 12:13:32 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on June 02, 2011, 10:52:36 PM

IMO he'll be used for one major tournament then be shelved.

At the very least, people will be hesitant to include him in a deck when they know that if their opponent has 3 certain heroes in their decks, their opponent can literally get CBN rescues against Goliath each turn with zero support cards beyond these 3 heroes.

Egyptian · « **Reply #55 on:** June 08, 2011, 12:16:55 PM »

If Goliath's ability did not have the "Opponent may present a new hero" clause in his ability, then the opponent would not add a second hero to battle, since Game Rules only allow you to attack once per turn. Since it is Goliath's ability that allows a second hero to be added, the hero is being added by Special Ability. And since Goliath is the opponent's character (from your Wall of Protection's perspective), it is the opponent that is trying to add a hero to battle, not you. And this is precisely what Wall of Protection protects against. You may get to choose the target, but it is still Goliath that does the "adding to battle".

I understand the explanation, but don't you see my friend, this is the problem. The rules of the game are becoming so complicated and counter-intuitive that you need a R.J.D. (Juris Doctor of Redemption) just to play a friendly game. And we've done it yet again with Goliath Promo. Not to mention nearly broken an otherwise fine card (Wall of Protection).

Instead of saying, "you know what, hmm, we might have made a little boo-boo with Goliath - we maybe didn't exactly anticipate the Wall of Protection problem, let's fix that," we spend paragraphs explaining to each other why this oddity really does make sense, and then convince ourselves that we ought to accept it.

Ken4Christ4ever · « **Reply #56 on:** June 08, 2011, 12:21:33 PM »

One of the things that I appreciate about this decision is that it gives people a reason NOT to put Wall of Protection in their decks. The only downside to it before was that it took up a card slot. I'm hoping that as new cards continue to come out, people will not have a certain group of core cards that they automatically put in their deck. Rock of Ages gave us a bunch of new Lost Soul cards to use, and I'd like to see more of this type of thing so that decks will be more varied moving forward.

Josh · « **Reply #57 on:** June 08, 2011, 12:24:43 PM »

Quote from: Egyptian on June 08, 2011, 12:16:55 PM

Don't you see my friend, this is the problem. The rules of the game are becoming so complicated and counter-intuitive that you need a R.J.D. (Juris Doctor of Redemption) just to play a friendly game. And we've done it yet again with Goliath Promo. Not to mention nearly broken an otherwise fine card (Wall of Protection).

Instead of saying, "you know what, hmm, we might have made a little boo-boo with Goliath - we maybe didn't exactly anticipate the Wall of Protection problem, let's fix that," we spend paragraphs explaining to each other why this oddity really does make sense, and then convince ourselves that we ought to accept it.

But it's not counter-intuitive. Wall of Protection does not allow your characters in territory to be brought into battle by an opponent. Goliath allows you to add a hero to battle.

Think of it this way. If Goliath was worded "Look at opponent's hand and add a hero from hand or territory to battle (opponent may choose which hero, and may choose to not add hero)", would you say that Wall of Protection would protect you against this? There is no difference between this ability and his current one, other than wording.

Egyptian · « **Reply #58 on:** June 08, 2011, 12:28:11 PM »

Quote from: Ken4Christ4ever on June 08, 2011, 12:21:33 PM

One of the things that I appreciate about this decision is that it gives people a reason NOT to put Wall of Protection in their decks. The only downside to it before was that it took up a card slot. I'm hoping that as new cards continue to come out, people will not have a certain group of core cards that they automatically put in their deck. Rock of Ages gave us a bunch of new Lost Soul cards to use, and I'd like to see more of this type of thing so that decks will be more varied moving forward.

Point well taken.

I like Wall of Protection. I don't want my opponent's heroes banding to my heroes. I don't want his Egyptian Wise Men bringing all my Egyptians into battle against my OWN heroes. It doesn't happen that often, but I would think a good player would take advantage of any opportunity to use his opponent's characters: as a famous chess master once said, it is good to sacrifice your pieces, but it is better to sacrifice your opponent's pieces.

I can appreciate your point about the extra slot though. But to me the threat of being banded to is reason enough that I want to play with Wall. Maybe I'm overrating the threat. If I am, would love to hear why.

Ken4Christ4ever · « **Reply #59 on:** June 08, 2011, 12:33:29 PM »

Exactly like you said, before now, there was no downside to having Wall of Protection. It gave you protection, and there was no real cost to having it in your deck. That's all I was trying to say.

The benefit was almost always worth the slot in your deck.

Egyptian · « **Reply #60 on:** June 08, 2011, 12:35:38 PM »

But it's not counter-intuitive. Wall of Protection does not allow your characters in territory to be brought into battle by an opponent. Goliath allows you to add a hero to battle.

Okay, last post on this then I gotta run. From a technical standpoint, you're right. But I'm not talking about the point of view of us Redemption technicians. I've got this card up called "Wall of Protection." It's supposed to protect ME from HIM (my opponent). I'm trying to make a rescue. He blocks with Goliath, kicking my guys out of battle. Now his Goliath says I can present a new hero. But my own WALL - which is there to protect ME - doesn't let me put a hero in battle. Regardless of how it's happening, the net effect is I'm being protected from me by my own Wall. This is what's goofy about it.

Pardon the use of italics but it's hard to convey the point in writing.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #61 on:** June 08, 2011, 12:37:32 PM »

Obviously the ruling makes Goliath, already a great EC, even better. However, let's not forget:

-Goliath currently has no protection in territory from Holy Grail, Meeting the Messiah, ignore abilities, or other pre-block nastiness that can stop him from blocking.

-You can still present a new Hero from hand.

-Red kind of needs Goliath to be popular to begin having more of a strategic advantage over other brigades.

So, just like people still use TGT even though Golgotha shuts down its ignore ability, people can still use Wall; they just have to have a way to deal with Goliath. There are plenty of those.

Egyptian · « **Reply #62 on:** June 08, 2011, 12:45:57 PM »

Thanks Prof. for the sanity check... but I still think it's an oddity (see my previous post on this thread). Nice list though of ways to stop Goliath.

Question though: if you convert him, what abilities still remain? Does he still CBN-negate band, draw, and play abilities? Maybe this is a question for a separate thread, but that would seem to be a pretty nice hero!! (10/10 that CBN-negates band, draw, and play abilities). Put up Altar of Incense or Blue Tassels and you've really got something going there.

Now I really gotta go... later.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #63 on:** June 08, 2011, 12:54:47 PM »

Quote from: Egyptian on June 08, 2011, 12:45:57 PM

Thanks Prof. for the sanity check... but I still think it's an oddity (see my previous post on this thread). Nice list though of ways to stop Goliath.

Question though: if you convert him, what abilities still remain? Does he still CBN-negate band, draw, and play abilities? Maybe this is a question for a separate thread, but that would seem to be a pretty nice hero!! (10/10 that CBN-negates band, draw, and play abilities). Put up Altar of Incense or Blue Tassels and you've really got something going there.

Now I really gotta go... later.

Yes. Goliath as a Hero would continue to CBN negate pretty much anything that a Pharisees defense can do (band, draw and play). I guess it makes sense that if David had been able to convince Goliath to switch sides and fight for the Lord's army, then he would have been a pretty beastly warrior for God.

Bryon · « **Reply #64 on:** June 09, 2011, 12:50:15 AM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on June 08, 2011, 12:37:32 PM

-Goliath currently has no protection in territory from Holy Grail, Meeting the Messiah,

I like your point, and I like the list, but Philistines do have a LITTLE bit of territory protection in Temple of Dagon which holds Altar of Dagon. I know they are not used all that often, but I use them in my defense-heavy Philistine deck with decent success, since Holy Grail and especially Women as Snares are common around here.

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Author Topic: Goliath (Read 6113 times)

Nameless

Re: Goliath

SomeKittens

Re: Goliath

Egyptian

Re: Goliath

Josh

Re: Goliath

Josh

Re: Goliath

Egyptian

Re: Goliath

Ken4Christ4ever

Re: Goliath

Josh

Re: Goliath

Egyptian

Re: Goliath

Ken4Christ4ever

Re: Goliath

Egyptian

Re: Goliath

Professoralstad

Re: Goliath

Egyptian

Re: Goliath

Professoralstad

Re: Goliath

Bryon

Re: Goliath