Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: RTSmaniac on November 01, 2010, 08:20:32 PM
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Golgotha (Di)
Type: Site • Brigade: White • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Anytime during battle, you may place a skull icon card from hand or discard pile on Golgotha: N.T. characters of that brigade cannot be ignored. Return that card to its previous location at end of turn.
Kindness (Di)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: 1 / 1 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate evil immune abilities. Hero ignores one evil brigade in battle. Opponent must draw 1 (or 2 if used by a Samaritan). • Identifiers: NT, Spiritual Gift • Verse: Luke 10:34 • Availability: Disciples booster packs
Im still confused about how Golgotha stops ignores, especially with cards like Kindness that ignore in battle.
I attack, opponent blocks. I play kindness ignoring EC in battle. Can they place an EE on Golgotha to negate the ignore?
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From my understanding:
No. They can, however, add an EE on Golgotha to gain CBIg.
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still confused.
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Cannot be Ignored is its own ability.
If a card cant be ignored, it cant be ignored, simple as that.
So, if a card is currently being ignored, and then it gains CBIgnored status, then its no longer ignored.
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much better. thanx
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Cannot be Ignored is its own ability.
If a card cant be ignored, it cant be ignored, simple as that.
So, if a card is currently being ignored, and then it gains CBIgnored status, then its no longer ignored.
Still makes no sense to me. Nothing else grants retroactive statuses, CBIg shouldn't either.
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Can i get some examples of these?
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As said, CBIgnored is its own ability. Don't apply CBI/N/P logic to it.
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does it matter if the ignore is CBN (aka I Am Truth)? how can i make kindness work against golgotha besides benedictus?
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does it matter if the ignore is CBN (aka I Am Truth)? how can i make kindness work against golgotha besides benedictus?
No, CBN/I/P status apparently doesn't matter, CBIg seems to override anything and everything else (which is the main issue I have with this whole thing). If Golgotha works the way it's described in this thread, then Ignore is effectively dead as an offensive ability.
As said, CBIgnored is its own ability. Don't apply CBI/N/P logic to it.
Capture is its own ability, yet it shares some game rules in common with discard, convert, ignore, etc.
Also, why? Why is CBIg somehow special enough to be "its own ability"? Why is making an ability that, without the need for interrupting/preventing/negating, can stop the ignore ability on any and every card any better than making TGT in the first place? I thought we were trying to NOT make super powerful abilities with few-to-no counters?
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CBIgnored is going to bring about a LOT of regardless abilities in the future.
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That's why you gotta use benedictus.
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does it matter if the ignore is CBN (aka I Am Truth)? how can i make kindness work against golgotha besides benedictus?
No, CBN/I/P status apparently doesn't matter, CBIg seems to override anything and everything else (which is the main issue I have with this whole thing). If Golgotha works the way it's described in this thread, then Ignore is effectively dead as an offensive ability.
... for now. Everyone uses golgotha in their decks right now because of how annoying pre-block ignore is. Once people think ignore is dead, they might stop using Gologotha, which means ignores will be useable again. Its going to turn into a cat and mouse game after a while, which is how it SHOULD be.
Also, why? Why is CBIg somehow special enough to be "its own ability"? Why is making an ability that, without the need for interrupting/preventing/negating, can stop the ignore ability on any and every card any better than making TGT in the first place? I thought we were trying to NOT make super powerful abilities with few-to-no counters?
It has to be its own ability because otherwise it would not even function.
Preblock ignore does not target characters in territory, and protects stop cards from being targeted. So, if it functioned as a protect, it would be completely useless against pre-block ignore, which was the whole issue in the first place. So, blame pre-block ignore for potentially killing ignore as a strategy.
*EDIT*
Also, it would be useless against preblock because, golgotha can only be used in battle... and preblock ignore is one of the first abilities to activate in battles.
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That's why you gotta use benedictus.
One use isn't enough.
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I'm not saying it shouldn't stop pre-block ignore, my concern is that it also stops in-battle ignore completely, which was nowhere close to OP and actually a fun and viable strategy. Since we're making up game rules to make Golgotha work "properly", why can't we word said rules differently? It's easy and entirely possible to word a game rule so that it stops pre-block ignore but not in-battle ignore, which imho would be infinitely better.
It has to be its own ability because otherwise it would not even function.
*Split Altar and all other printed-differently-than-intended cards wave hello* It's not the players' fault that the PTB/Rob didn't word it so that it worked properly, we shouldn't be punished by having an entire deck-type murdered as a result.
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That's why you gotta use benedictus.
One use isn't enough.
You can recur it with Consider the Lilies right?
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*Split Altar and all other printed-differently-than-intended cards wave hello* It's not the players' fault that the PTB/Rob didn't word it so that it worked properly, we shouldn't be punished by having an entire deck-type murdered as a result.
This was decided BEFORE Disciples came out. See: Large Tree.
It was not a change made due to poor wording.
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That's why you gotta use benedictus.
One use isn't enough.
You can recur it with Consider the Lilies right?
Benedictus does nothing because anyone running Golgotha also has CP.
^Ignore please. Forgot that you can still negate even if protected.
*Split Altar and all other printed-differently-than-intended cards wave hello* It's not the players' fault that the PTB/Rob didn't word it so that it worked properly, we shouldn't be punished by having an entire deck-type murdered as a result.
This was decided BEFORE Disciples came out. See: Large Tree.
It was not a change made due to poor wording.
Large Tree, much like Hating the Light, isn't even the same ball of wax as Golgotha. They are place enhancements that, by definition, only have their abilities last as long as the card is there and unnegated. I can get rid of your enhancement and be ignoring you again, I apparently can't get rid of the enhancement on Golgotha and be ignoring you because apparently "anytime during battle" on Golgotha, and only on Golgotha, means "anytime you want, even during the resolution of other abilities" which makes it even more powerful than dominants.
Preblock ignore does not target characters in territory, and protects stop cards from being targeted. So, if it functioned as a protect, it would be completely useless against pre-block ignore, which was the whole issue in the first place. So, blame pre-block ignore for potentially killing ignore as a strategy.
I think you need to reread your cards. TGT ignores "evil brigades" and Golgotha, even as it is worded now and without any game rules that modify it, says "characters of that brigade". TGT ignores brigades, Golgotha protects brigades, where is there a problem?
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CP does not protect against negates.
Negate ALWAYS goes through protect (unless its trying to negate a CBN protect.)
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Well if you play benedictus pre-battle and steal their Golgotha, then it's not a problem.
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Large Tree, much like Hating the Light, isn't even the same ball of wax as Golgotha. They are place enhancements that, by definition, only have their abilities last as long as the card is there and unnegated. I can get rid of your enhancement and be ignoring you again, I apparently can't get rid of the enhancement on Golgotha and be ignoring you because apparently "anytime during battle" on Golgotha, and only on Golgotha, means "anytime you want, even during the resolution of other abilities" which makes it even more powerful than dominants.
I was talking about Cannot Be Ignored. It was not made simply because of bad wording on cards. CBIgnored was designed the way it is intentionally... you seem to think it was a quick fix to make a card work, when it was not. CBIgnored has actually existed since Angel Wars.
I think you need to reread your cards. TGT ignores "evil brigades" and Golgotha, even as it is worded now and without any game rules that modify it, says "characters of that brigade". TGT ignores brigades, Golgotha protects brigades, where is there a problem?
I argued a similar point, but to no avail. The part of ignore that keeps characters out of battle targets the field of battle, NOT characters. You cant use a protect ability to stop pre-block ignore, ever. So, CBIgnored cannot work like a protect, nor a negate. It's its own ability.
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So, CBIgnored cannot work like a protect, nor a negate. It's its own ability.
Fine, then don't make it a protect. Semantics don't matter to me. What I've been trying to get across is this: CBIg, as it works on the 2(+) enhancements is perfectly fine, because they at least still follow the rules of enhancements, initiative, and ongoing abilities. CBIg, as you want to treat it on Golgotha, is not okay. My point below still stands:
I apparently can't get rid of the enhancement on Golgotha and be ignoring you because apparently "anytime during battle" on Golgotha, and only on Golgotha, means "anytime you want, even during the resolution of other abilities" which makes it even more powerful than dominants.
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That's why you gotta use benedictus.
One use isn't enough.
The Centurion at Capernaum + Gathering of Angels
;)
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That's waay too much trouble.
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That's waay too much trouble.
Hence the winky face.
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Ethan?
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White Custom hero?
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Because either of those help with No Need for Spices, which is one of the cards I'm referring to.
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One card isn't enough of a counter. Look at how many CBIgnores are coming out.
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i still dont understand the answer to this post?
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Ignore is an ongoing ability. That means it will not "complete" until the battle is over. So, if we are in the middle of the battle and I am being ignored, I can choose to add an EE to Golgotha. My ECs now have the ongoing ability that they can not be ignored, which means your ignore (which was ongoing, and never completed), while still active, is no longer causing me to lose the battle.
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so then i add dragonraid to battle and discard the EE. Now you can add another? maybe it should only be once per turn or something?
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Yes, you can add another enhancement if the one on Golgotha is discarded (or removed in some other way ;)). Golgotha was very intentionally designed so that you could *NOT* ignore if Dragon Raid was used.
*edit
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Somewhat related question...
When can you add DragonRaid to battle? If you pre-block ignore with something (say TGT) and they add their enhancement, can you immediately add DR to battle or do you have to wait until they block or some other unknown time in battle?
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You can add D-Raid at any time. Using it to discard the enhancement on Golgotha won't accomplish anything though.
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Yes, you can add another enhancement if the one on Golgotha is discarded (or removed in some other way ;)). Golgotha was very intentionally designed so that you could ignore if Dragon Raid was used.
This is news. Couldn't I go grab the very enhancement that was just discarded?
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You can add D-Raid at any time. Using it to discard the enhancement on Golgotha won't accomplish anything though.
Unless Hezekiah's Signet Ring is active of course...I would say that they have a chance to block before you can add Dragon Raid, responding to their own action, but I'm not certain.
Yes, you can add another enhancement if the one on Golgotha is discarded (or removed in some other way ;)). Golgotha was very intentionally designed so that you could ignore if Dragon Raid was used.
This is news. Couldn't I go grab the very enhancement that was just discarded?
I think Gabe meant to say "couldn't" not "could."
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I think Gabe meant to say "couldn't" not "could."
Correct, sorry for the typo. :)
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I would say that they have a chance to block before you can add Dragon Raid, responding to their own action, but I'm not certain.
and what was thier own action? adding a card to Golgotha? I dont know how i feel about this whole responding to our own action rule. Isnt that suppose to be when two people play at the same time?
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Yes, that only applies as a tie breaker when two Dominants are played "at the same time". Let's not get crazy and start applying it all over the board. :)
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in other games its called priority. The active player has priority to activate any abilities first then priority moves to the next player.
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You can add D-Raid at any time. Using it to discard the enhancement on Golgotha won't accomplish anything though.
As ProfAlstad said, HSR makes it accomplish something quite good, and its very relevant when you can add DR to battle... is Prof right about this "own action" thing, so they'd get to block before I could add DR to battle?
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So mI attack with Jacob, play RTC they add an EE to Golgotha allowing their N.T. EC's to block. I then add DR to battle to discard that enhancement, so as of right at the time whatever brigade I was ignoring could not block, correct? Then they can add another enhancement on Golgotha since DR's ability is already activated and not ongoing? I might have confused myself on this one.
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thats my understanding.
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So mI attack with Jacob, play RTC they add an EE to Golgotha allowing their N.T. EC's to block. I then add DR to battle to discard that enhancement, so as of right at the time whatever brigade I was ignoring could not block, correct? Then they can add another enhancement on Golgotha since DR's ability is already activated and not ongoing? I might have confused myself on this one.
That is correct.
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make a new cards that says "If a card is discarded, remove it from the game instead."
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make a new cards that says "If a card is discarded, remove it from the game instead."
If that were printed, burial would be my favorite card.
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Burial? What about WoS/AocP?
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"Once per turn, a card being discarded (except by a dominant) may be removed from the game instead."
Problem solved.
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Burial? What about WoS/AocP?
Simply remove your souls from the game and they cant win.
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Burial? What about WoS/AocP?
Simply remove your souls from the game and they cant win.
There's plenty of ways to generate souls. I'd much rather remove their entire offense/defense. We once had a multi game were (within three rounds) DD, AoCP, WoS and RDJ all went off.