Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: The Guardian on August 16, 2009, 06:09:56 PM
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Glory of the Lord ~ Place in territory. Solomon's Temple and the artifact in it cannot be discarded or negated by an opponent.
Book of the Covenant ~ Holder may activate two covenants on this artifact.
If I have Book of the Covenant in Solomon's Temple (+Glory) with a covenant or two on it, are the covenants also protected by Glory?
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Yes. The Covenants are being played as artifacts, so should be treated as artifacts.
Mike
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I'm not positive about this. Although I'm inclined to agree with the above, GotL only refers to one artifact, so I'm not sure.
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Yes, it refers to one being targeted... ;D
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That was the reason for my question BB--should "and the artifact in it" be interpreted as "and the artifact(s) in it."
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I remember this from a while ago.
Opponent plays DoN and chooses your Covenant of Noah on your BoC in your Temple protected by GotL.
You read the ability of GotL, which says "the artifact in it."
You both look at the Temple and see that Covenant of Noah is in the Temple and it is an artifact.
Your opponent says, "Rats!"
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I think that since GotL's artifact target is worded singularly, only one artifact could be protected by it.
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Exactly. And that one is the one that your opponent is trying to target.
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The question arises because of Crucify Him, which targets both Covenants and Book at the same time.
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Hm...would the holder be able to choose the one to keep?
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Noone uses Crucify Him.... ;)
OK, let's try this instead:
Book of the Covenant says "Holder may activate two covenants on this artifact."
Activate is defined in the rulebook (p.37) as "A card is activated when its special ability can be put to use."
I am curious whether covenants activated on Book ever really are considered artifacts. The SA of Book seems to be a way of "activating" the SA as a covenant.
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I would think that the covenants would become artifacts once they hit the artifact pile. However, if they go to BotC straight from your hand...hmmm...
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Covenants being used as Artifacts are considered both a Covenant and an Artifact. Covenants being used as Enhancements are considered both a Covenant and an Enhancement.
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^
l
Worst rule ever......
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Covenants being used as Artifacts are considered both a Covenant and an Artifact. Covenants being used as Enhancements are considered both a Covenant and an Enhancement.
I realize that, but BoC activates their SA as neither. It says to activate the Covenant. That's it. It is not in the Artifact Pile and it is not active on the Temple since it is not a Temple Artifact. I think this generates an exception.
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^
l
Worst rule ever......
Care to elaborate on that? ???
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Covenants being used as Artifacts are considered both a Covenant and an Artifact. Covenants being used as Enhancements are considered both a Covenant and an Enhancement.
I know this, but would a covenant be an artifact if it went to BotC straight from hand? As YMT said, BotC doesn't specify that the covenants are activated as either artifacts or enhancements. (And BTW, there are some artifacts - Altar of Burnt Offering and Table of Showbread - that can hold/activate enhancements)
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Care to elaborate on that? ???
Don't go there.... ;)
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^
l
Worst rule ever......
Care to elaborate on that? ???
I just dislike it, because at face value it's neither an Artifact nor an Enhancement, even though you can choose for it to be either.... It's like saying I can't search for Brass Serpent with A Soldier's Prayer because its not red, its multi color. I can't search for a Covenant (or Curse) with a card that says enhancement, even though a covenant is one....
Its not the worst rule ever.
But it is really annoying, and makes little sense to me...
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I just dislike it, because at face value it's neither an Artifact nor an Enhancement, ...
If that is true, then my point stands.
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I always intrepid it like this in the draw pile its a covenant until it hits your hand, the table, or the artifact pile. also GotL if I'm interrupting this right protects what is being targeted, so if I DoN a book of the covenant in a temple with GoTL it protects the book if you target a covenant it protects it.
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I am curious now whether RDT's quote is true. If a face-value Covenant is neither an artifact nor an enhancement, and BotC activates the Covenant as a Covenant (rather than either of the others), then GotL would not protect Covenants activated on BotC in the Temple (since they are not artifacts). Of course, they could only be targeted as a Covenant (and not a Covenant activated as an artifact).
All of this is moot, however, if by default protecting BotC protects its contents.
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That default doesn't work*.
*Kingdoms of this world being discarded with evil characters rulings
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But was that a case where the ECs were protected and the fortress wasn't? Here the fortress is protected.
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A Covenant activated on Book of the Covenant is considered an Artifact and a Covenant. Enhancements only activate on Heroes so the example of Table of Showbread holding an enhancement doesn't apply.
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A Covenant activated on Book of the Covenant is considered an Artifact and a Covenant.
But why is it considered an artifact? It was activated as a Covenant.
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Covenants active on Book are treated as Artifacts. If nothing else, it is plain that they are following the rules for cards treated as Artifacts, and not applying any of the rules for cards treated as Enhancements (being activated on a character, being played in battle, being discarded immediately upon use, etc)
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I understand what you are saying, and I'm really not trying to be a pest, but wouldn't the wording of BotC create an exception in this case to keep the Covenant at face value? The ability is able to activate because BotC's SA says so, rather than any rule for using artifacts or enhancements.
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no because it is being used as an artifact
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no because it is being used as an artifact
It's not being used as an artifact. It is being used as a covenant. What game rule says that it is being used as an artifact? It is not in the Artifact Pile and it is was not activated by Temple.
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It is being used as an Artifact. It is in a Fortress designed to hold Artifacts. It is staying on the table and having a lasting effect just like an Artifact. It is behaving in all the ways an Artifact acts and none of the ways an Enhancement acts.
The rules specifically state that Covenants are used in one of these two ways, and the way it is used here clearly spells out the type it is imitating. The reason it says "Covenant" is so that you don't activate another card like a Curse or a regular Artifact.
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Enhancements can't sit on the table and have lasting effects? Thats news to me ;) I wouldn't count that as a way that only an artifact acts.
Fine, what if I activate Book on the artifact pile, now its not in the temple.
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It is being used as an Artifact. It is in a Fortress designed to hold Artifacts. It is staying on the table and having a lasting effect just like an Artifact. It is behaving in all the ways an Artifact acts and none of the ways an Enhancement acts.
The fortress is holding an artifact - BotC. BotC is holding two covenants. I'm not sure how to gauge the "lasting effect" statement since set-asides and placed cards linger. I haven't seen the new Territory Class enhancements, but do they linger, too?
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Enhancements can't sit on the table and have lasting effects?
As a default, they cannot--the ones that do specify that they do.
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As a default, they cannot--the ones that do specify that they do.
This is not a default situation. BotC's SA makes them linger.
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It does no such thing. You are trying to read the card ultra-literally to say they are activated "as Covenants" but you have nothing in the rules that tells you how a Covenant is supposed to behave at face value, other than to mimic one of these other card types. Additionally, Book does not say to "place" the cards nor does it say in any way that they must remain in play. It says only to activate.
And everyone making the wiseacre remarks about lingering Enhancements is taking my statement out of context, ignoring the earlier rule that I mentioned (and which they should already know) about activating Enhancements only on characters. Every Enhancement that is activated outside of battle is still activated on a character of matching brigade in order to have its effect. Enhancements that stay on the table apart from the Battle Phase have been PLACED there by that special ability, AFTER it was activated by being played on a character. I don't see the benefit in having to stop the discussion in order to go down this other rabbit hole, when I'm pretty sure there is nobody in this thread who ever activated a Covenant on Book actually thinking they were playing it like an Enhancement. For example:
Fine, what if I activate Book on the artifact pile, now its not in the temple.
I'm sorry, the "what" pile?
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Wiseacre. Wow.
Since my posts in this thread don't fit the definition of wiseacre, I guess it's safe to assume I'm just an idiot. I apologize for my inquiry.
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I provided an example, with a name (not yours) of someone (not you) who was "asking" about Enhancements rhetorically, and you still took this as personal dig directed at you?
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And everyone making the wiseacre remarks about lingering Enhancements
This quote came before your directed quote of someone else. "Everyone" would be presumed to be plural, and I made comments about "lingering enhancements." Why would I not think it was directed at me (as well as someone else)?
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Yeah, it also came before I said, for example, which tends to suggest that what follows is an example of what was said before.
I would think a cursory examination of your own post, whether it was asking a question regarding the card, or going "Enhancements never stay on the table? lol?" would make it pretty clear whether you're included in that group.
In addition to which, you're not arguing that the Covenants are treated as Enhancements, but as Covenants (though I'm still not clear what that is supposed to mean), so it doesn't seem to me like this would be addressing you at all anyway.
And just to be clear, since our focus seems to be on very specific language, that while "lingering Enhancement" was your phrase, I have been trying to stick exclusively to game language whenever possible. I grabbed that phrase in my last post because it just happened to be in the one post immediately preceding my response, but there have been two specific distinctions I have been trying to make:
1). Enhancements typically are played, have their effect, and are discarded. This includes cards played outside of battle, such as healing cards and Territory class Enhancements. Set-asides stay with the cards they set aside only by game rule, and only as a reference "marker" for the time those cards are set aside. They have specific rules regarding why they stay in play, for how long, and when they are discarded. Placed Enhancements stay on the table because their special ability specifically says they stay. These are outliers and the general rule is that Enhancements are played, have their effect, and then are discarded, immediately outside of battle or at the end of battle if played within.
2). Lasting effect was a term I used off the top of my head from the rulebook definition of an Artifact. The actual term listed in the rulebook says "continuing effect". The point being that, in contrast to Enhancements which are played and then discarded, Artifacts are activated, and tend to stay that way through an entire round of turns.
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Hey,
YMT, the word "activate" in the ability of Book of the Covenant indicates that it has an Activate an Artifact ability which must target an artifact or a card being treated as an artifact. Thus Covenants on Book of the Covenant are activated as artifacts. Your idea is a valid idea, but the game simply does not give the option of activating a covenant as a covenant, there is no game rule that defines what that would mean. Covenants simply always activate as either enhancements or artifacts; they cannot activate as Covenants.
As far as the original question, the more literal interpretation would say Covenants on Book of the Covenant are not protected by Glory of the Lord. The more intuitive interpretation would say Covenants on Book of the Covenant are protected by Glory of the Lord. Either position could be legitimately justified. I am in favor of the intuitive interpretation that says Covenants on Book of the Covenant in Solomon's Temple when Glory of the Lord is in play are protected by Glory of the Lord.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Your idea is a valid idea, but the game simply does not give the option of activating a covenant as a covenant, there is no game rule that defines what that would mean.
Oh good. So I'm not as much of an idiot as it may have seemed. (Or I am, but you are being gracious).
Thank you Sir! 8)
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Out of all the Redemption tournament games I have judged, the exactly ONE time I saw this combo pulled off, I ruled that Glory does protect the two covenants.
First, I agree with Tim in that it is intuitive. Second, if you can manage to pull that all off, you deserve to have the covenants protected. :)
Kevin Shride