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What happens when draws are negated and cards are played or the draws triggered other effects is one of the most complicated parts of the game (and I still haven't seen a definitive ruling on parts of that issue).
Quote from: Redoubter on November 10, 2012, 10:32:26 PMWhat happens when draws are negated and cards are played or the draws triggered other effects is one of the most complicated parts of the game (and I still haven't seen a definitive ruling on parts of that issue).If I draw a dominant and play it, then that cannot be undone by a negate. Therefore, would the opponent get to keep one of the drawn cards from Gifts (assuming the ruling is as stated)? Obviously this is problematic. The more touchy issue with negating a draw is being sure that the player actually returns the same cards he drew (and in the correct order), rather than make "strategic substitutions" (aka "cheat").
Quote from: Redoubter on November 10, 2012, 10:32:26 PMWhat happens when draws are negated and cards are played or the draws triggered other effects is one of the most complicated parts of the game (and I still haven't seen a definitive ruling on parts of that issue).If I draw a dominant and play it, then that cannot be undone by a negate. Therefore, would the opponent get to keep one of the drawn cards from Gifts (assuming the ruling is as stated)? Obviously this is problematic. The more touchy issue with negating a draw is being sure that the player actually returns the same cards he drew (and in the correct order), rather than make "strategic substitutions" (aka "cheat"). I suggest that we create a list of abilities that can be prevented, but not interrupted. We already effectively do that with reveal and look at opponent's hand abilities. I think we should do the same with draw abilities.
I will continue to argue that the status quo is ridiculous, a bottom-up ruling that is too complex, inconsistent, and needs to be changed. I have no support, however.
...if we make it so that no cards can be unplayed. Period. Once it hits the table, the act of placing it on the table is CBI. If we can get more support behind that, I think it is a cause definitely worth considering.
The tradeoff is too high. Yeah, it's more simple, but it'd be more simple if we just made all cards CBN too.
It's not inconsistent or bottom-up.
I don't think you understand what bottom-up means. That is a ruling on a specific card or a specific situation. Top-down rules don't have to be free from exceptions or simple in order to be top-down.What's actually going on here is that you're confused about what rules are in play. There is no such thing as a rule that says the playing of a card can be undone with these exceptions. That'd just be ridiculous. What is happening is that:1. CBI abilities have a rule that makes them always stay played once played.2. Play abilities are inherently CBI (along with a couple other abilities).3. There is a rule that causes negates to cascade, but the previous two rules take precedence over it.So what you're describing is just made up. You're proposing adding a new rule just to change what the default state of cards are, not changing an existing rule.The rules are consistent and as simple as they can be without causing broken mechanics such as loops. Adding another rule does not make things less complicated. There are three rules, not two, in play, and none of them have exceptions.
My disagreement is based on the power boost it will give to speed. While the inertia argument is not a be-all, it is a deal breaker when you propose changing a rule in a way that will make the game worse just to simplify it. Good rule changes always make the game better.
Making drawing CBI makes it more powerful. That element shouldn't need explanation.Making all cards sticky makes draw+play abilities more powerful because you can no longer negate the cause. This isn't as big a problem as making drawing CBI, and really factors in much less than the argument against making new rules for no gameplay benefit. New rules should only be added to the game when 1. it would benefit the game or 2. something in the existing rules is broken. Neither is true for these proposals.
There are no exceptions. There are three different rules that interact in a way that makes it look like there are exceptions. Accepting this fact, if you can make an argument for adding a "playing of cards cannot be negated" rule, I'll probably get behind it because I do love simple. But you'll make to headway if you keep trying to fudge the numbers on the front end.
I already said I understand your side, I'm asking you to see that it makes sense this way, too.
I initially like your suggestion on the grounds of simplicity (although it would have to be playing of cards from hand), but consider this: currently, if a blocker plays a banding card, bands in a Horsed blocker and then plays something off it, negating the band will negate everything that came after it. With your proposed rule, the card that was played off Horses would remain played even though the band, draw, and any SA on the character were negated. That sounds more complicated to me than the normal cascade chain.
Ah, you're right. My example was wrong because it doesn't change anything. Better example:Hero attacks and bands to someone in hand. That band is now CBI. That's an enormous leap in power.
Actually if I remember correctly, when Redoubter first suggested the change, this exact situation was brought up and he pointed out that the band would NOT be CBI, since only the playing of the card was. You could negate the band, and the character would go to territory (since that was the default spot for the character to be once in play).
And in response to Redoubter's earlier post about negating a band that brought in a mounted EC - if the played enhancement was drawn via Horses, it actually does get unplayed and goes back to deck if the Horses are negated.
Actually, in my haste to be accommodating I was too much so. My initial example would indeed result in the "unplaying" of the card if it were drawn by 2kH as Hartz reminded me.
Play abilities (i.e. You may play the next enhancement, holder may play the next enhancement, etc.) are inherently CBI. So if I attack with Ethiopian Treasurer and play an enhancement, and you block with King of Tyrus, the enhancement is negated if it can be, but it doesn't go back to hand, since KoT can't negate ET's play ability.Draw abilities are not inherently CBI. So if I attack with Matthew and draw 3, and you block with King of Tyrus, the drawn cards go back to where they came from. This is true even if the card drawn was already played, unless the card played is CBN/CBI. What this means if you block my Matthew with Herod the Great, and I play Preaching the Truth which I drew with Matthew, then you play Mask of Fear, then PtT goes back on top of the deck, along with the other drawn cards. The confusing part is cards like Reach of Desperation or the various Horsey weapons, which have both draw and play abilities. In those cases, the two abilities are separate abilities on the same card, and are treated separately along the above guidelines.
I don't know how you're getting that from his post, but it would definitely be unplayed.