Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: CJSports on December 27, 2011, 01:36:27 PM
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If you make a rescue attempt with a hero with less than six defense and I block with Jezebel to King Ahab to play Land Purchase which brings out a Samaria site. I choose to decrease the attacking hero. Now with the new decrease rule the hero is dying. So....
1. Can he interrupt the battle with something like words of encouragement
2. Does he have to interrupt the fortress itself via Samuel's Edict or something that negates an evil card
3. Can he not do anything
Also, if the same hero had played an enhancement earlier that same battle that had increased his abilities past 6/6, would he still die immediately (or after battle)?
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This is my understanding of the rules, keeping in mind I've never heard this fully clarified. You could interrupt the battle, but you would have to negate Gate of Samaria, since it's the one doing the actual decreasing.
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ok if gate is the one doing the decreasing is this diffrent in case of king omri if his search gets negated the samaria never happened or?
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This is my understanding of the rules, keeping in mind I've never heard this fully clarified. You could interrupt the battle, but you would have to negate Gate of Samaria, since it's the one doing the actual decreasing.
If you're being discarded/captured/etc, you must interrupt/negate whatever is doing the discard/capture/etc. If I Writ you, you can't play Reach just to get the D3, because it only interrupts the battle, not discarded artifacts (or GoS in this case). This is the same case. If you were attempting to kill my James, SoA, I could play MLaMG to kill Gates. I couldn't play Reach or Passover Hymn.
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ok so then going by that if omri blocks and fetches a samaria they still have to negate gates to save themselves not omri ?
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That would be correct. Omri's ability is not the one doing the remove from battle.
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ok now to follow that logic one step further i thought cards affecting a battle but not actually in battle were either cbn or cbi etc see herods dungeon last year
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This is my understanding of the rules, keeping in mind I've never heard this fully clarified. You could interrupt the battle, but you would have to negate Gate of Samaria, since it's the one doing the actual decreasing.
If you're being discarded/captured/etc, you must interrupt/negate whatever is doing the discard/capture/etc. If I Writ you, you can't play Reach just to get the D3, because it only interrupts the battle, not discarded artifacts (or GoS in this case). This is the same case. If you were attempting to kill my James, SoA, I could play MLaMG to kill Gates. I couldn't play Reach or Passover Hymn.
This is how I would rule it and how I thought it would work, but I still would like to hear an elder even though kittens is normaly a sound source.
Finally, what about my last question???
As for this, I never heard about it and if this is so their definitely needs to be changed unless their is so underlying logic.
ok now to follow that logic one step further i thought cards affecting a battle but not actually in battle were either cbn or cbi etc see herods dungeon last year
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That's never been a rule. Demanding to hear from an Elder about that is like insisting that an Elder tell you you don't turn a card face-down when it's captured.
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Pol, what exactly has never been a rule?
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ok now to follow that logic one step further i thought cards affecting a battle but not actually in battle were either cbn or cbi etc see herods dungeon last year
As far as I know, there wasn't a card that could negate Herod's Dungeon last year (Though I'm historically wrong on this sort of thing.)
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im not saying there was im saying using it was ruled as cbi so gates should get the same treatment
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im not saying there was im saying using it was ruled as cbi so gates should get the same treatment [citation needed]
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im not saying there was im saying using it was ruled as cbi so gates should get the same treatment
Are you thinking of the ruling where a NT gold/purple hero couldn't use Faith as a Mustard Seed to interrupt Herod's Dungeon when captured? If so, the ruling was pretty simple: once HD activated, allowing it to be interrupted (since it's not CBI/CBN), at that point the hero was captured and couldn't use FaaMS. It had nothing to do with HD being CBI/CBN.
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But then with that interpretation wouldn't it be the same with Gates of Samaria. I don't agree with it, I'm just curious... because then you could say that with all cards capturing/discarding/etc. the hero and he couldn't do anything about it so I don't think that is correct.
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once HD activated, allowing it to be interrupted (since it's not CBI/CBN), at that point the hero was captured and couldn't use FaaMS. It had nothing to do with HD being CBI/CBN.
You mean when it's not special initiative, right?
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once HD activated, allowing it to be interrupted (since it's not CBI/CBN), at that point the hero was captured and couldn't use FaaMS. It had nothing to do with HD being CBI/CBN.
You mean when it's not special initiative, right?
The only way to target HD with FaaMS after capture while still in battle is to have 2 or more heroes in battle before capture. And there's no special initiative that transfers at HD capture, because the card causing the removal from battle was not added to battle.
This is kinda off point. I was just wondering if Matt was thinking, based on this specific ruling, that HD was CBI/CBN and therefore Gates of Samaria was too.
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Actually it impacts GoS, too. Anytime you gain special initiative, you can play a negate to negate the SA that causes the special initiative as long as it can be targeted. I have a lone NT gold/purple hero in battle, you block with a Herod and use HD's SA, I have special initiative and can play a gold/purple negate to negate HD, which in this example is FaaMS.
The same can be done with GoS.
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You guys are getting the rulings mixed up. The reason you can't use FaaMS is because it only targets occupied sites. It was ruled (correctly) that while you have special initiative, the site is not occupied because the capture has not yet completed. If the site were to be occupied, then the window for interruption would have passed. This has nothing to do with a general rule but the nature of how a specific card targets.
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You guys are getting the rulings mixed up. The reason you can't use FaaMS is because it only targets occupied sites. It was ruled (correctly) that while you have special initiative, the site is not occupied because the capture has not yet completed. If the site were to be occupied, then the window for interruption would have passed. This has nothing to do with a general rule but the nature of how a specific card targets.
Thank you for clarifying that. I didn't know the exact wording on FaaMS (I thought it was just "site"), so I was getting really confused.
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Yea, Mustard Seed can only Interrupt Occupied Sites, if u played a card that Negates a Site then u could.
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You COULD however, use Trumpet and Sword if a tabernacle priest was out.
I've stopped Herod's Dungeon with that card quite a few times. I'd also argue that you could play T&S to stop Gates if Omri blocks.
If a Tabernacle priest is in play, negate and discard a single-color Site or evil Fortress. Discard up to X human Evil Characters.
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You COULD however, use Trumpet and Sword if a tabernacle priest was out.
I've stopped Herod's Dungeon with that card quite a few times. I'd also argue that you could play T&S to stop Gates if Omri blocks.
I'd agree, for the same reason My Lord and My God can target Gates of Samaria.
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You COULD however, use Trumpet and Sword if a tabernacle priest was out.
I've stopped Herod's Dungeon with that card quite a few times. I'd also argue that you could play T&S to stop Gates if Omri blocks.
If a Tabernacle priest is in play, negate and discard a single-color Site or evil Fortress. Discard up to X human Evil Characters.
That's how I interpreted it...
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You COULD however, use Trumpet and Sword if a tabernacle priest was out.
I've stopped Herod's Dungeon with that card quite a few times. I'd also argue that you could play T&S to stop Gates if Omri blocks.
If a Tabernacle priest is in play, negate and discard a single-color Site or evil Fortress. Discard up to X human Evil Characters.
That's how I interpreted it...
That sounds good to me.
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Wonderful!!!
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ok so just wanna be clear are we saying they have to target gates as its doing the decrease or is it able to be stopped by negating omri's search thats my question.
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ok so just wanna be clear are we saying they have to target gates as its doing the decrease or is it able to be stopped by negating omri's search thats my question.
You cannot play a card that simply negates Omri's search ability, because Omri isn't the card removing the hero from battle, Gates of Samaria is. You have to target Gates.
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ok thats what i thought ty chronic
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Oh and what about my very last question. I kind of forgot about it....
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It depends. If it was an enhancement that actually increased the numbers on the character card itself (the way that Gates of Samaria does), then those numbers are added to the actual total. If you just mean the numbers on the enhancements, then no, they don't help the hero.
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You guys are getting the rulings mixed up. The reason you can't use FaaMS is because it only targets occupied sites. It was ruled (correctly) that while you have special initiative, the site is not occupied because the capture has not yet completed. If the site were to be occupied, then the window for interruption would have passed. This has nothing to do with a general rule but the nature of how a specific card targets.
WT.?? Is it double secret special initiative now that you can use it during the time it takes to complete an instant special ability?? Good grief.
Herod’s Dungeon (TP)
Type: Site • Brigade: White • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: While blocking with a Herod while this Site is unoccupied, you may capture a male human Hero with strength 7/* or greater and place it here. When you block with Herodias, you may discard a captured Hero. • Identifiers: Israel • Verse: Matthew 14:3
Faith as a Mustard Seed (Di)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Purple/Yellow • Ability: 3 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: If used by a N.T. Hero, interrupt an occupied Site, an evil Enhancement, or a non-human Evil Character and remove it from the game. • Identifiers: NT, Spiritual Gift • Verse: Luke 17:6
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I'm confused what you're communicating STAMP. Pol is saying that because Faith as a Mustard Seed only targets occupied sites, it cannot be used to target a Herod's Dungeon capturing a hero because the site would not be occupied when the hero played the card.
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Well, Stamp, consider this situation. Timothy is in battle, defender plays Coliseum Lions, discarding Timothy. Timothy plays Words of Encouragement and then Resurrection (search discard pile for an NT Hero, add to hand or battle). You wouldn't be able to target Timothy with Resurrection, because he's not in the discard pile yet (he's in battle playing that enhancement).
It's the same principle for Herod's Dungeon and Faith like Mustard. The site's not occupied if the thing supposedly occupying the site is in battle eating mustard!
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Well I seem to be confused as to what in the world special initiative means anymore. Apparently I have been out of the loop too long.
By my reckoning, any lone, male human NT Hero with strength 7/* or greater I have in battle may get captured (a triggered instant ability) by a blocking Herod. That ability must complete before I can check for special initiative. I check. I notice I am losing by removal. I play a negate. I decide to use FaaMS because HD is now occupado. Where's the issue?
Well, Stamp, consider this situation. Timothy is in battle, defender plays Coliseum Lions, discarding Timothy. Timothy plays Reach of Desperation and then Resurrection (search discard pile for an NT Hero, add to hand or battle). You wouldn't be able to target Timothy with Resurrection, because he's not in the discard pile yet (he's in battle playing that enhancement).
It's the same principle for Herod's Dungeon and Faith like Mustard. The site's not occupied if the thing supposedly occupying the site is in battle eating mustard!
Since when are instant abilities not completed prior to checking for special initiative? Excuse my sign language, but that is:
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lifeprint.com%2Fasl101%2Fsignjpegs%2Fs%2Fstupid33.jpg&hash=7527be734004a8b10eebfbde2828b2dc7a0f0b60)
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It's because it's not occupied yet. You're losing by removal, yes, but you have not been removed yet, unless you're proposing that I can play an enhancement from a site.
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It's because it's not occupied yet. You're losing by removal, yes, but you have not been removed yet, unless you're proposing that I can play an enhancement from a site.
Let's clarify things a bit. Y'all are arguing from the perspective that the instant ability has not completed when checking for speical initiative. I'm not.
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It's because it's not occupied yet. You're losing by removal, yes, but you have not been removed yet, unless you're proposing that I can play an enhancement from a site.
Let's clarify things a bit. Y'all are arguing from the perspective that the instant ability has not completed when checking for speical initiative. I'm not.
The point of an interrupt is that it interrupts the instant ability, meaning before it would go to the site.
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Let's clarify things a bit. Y'all are arguing from the perspective that the instant ability has not completed when checking for speical initiative. I'm not.
The ability has completed. And then the interrupt says it hasn't: "Interrupt is used to temporarily stop a previously completed card’s special ability until the special ability on the interrupt card is completed." - REG
It was completed, but if an interrupt is played then the ability has once again reached the "non-completed" state. So Herod's Dungeon isn't an occupied site if you try to interrupt it.
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Yea, at any point, Opponent is allowed to Interrupt/Negate Gates but not the Battle. No player may Interrupt the Battle (because an effect outside of Battle is resolving) though.
Even so, Mustard Seed requires the Site to be occupied which means that the only way u can play it is after the effect is completed. You cannot Interrupt it Mustard Seed because it's unoccupied. This is the only reason why Mustard Seed cannot stop HD.
And no, I had asked about if I negate Omni would it stop Gates and the answer is no apparently. Because Gates' effect still goes through even if Samaria gets shuffled back into their Decks. I believe it's the same reason why if u Negate a Interrupt/+3/play next The card that was played by it still works.
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right and im pretty much in agreement but now im curious if i block with omri and my opponet plays something itb and kills him the samaria goes back he may or may not die but the decrease still happens? if so can i find ways to interrupt my own omri and effectively get multiple decreases off of him for one site?
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Let's clarify things a bit. Y'all are arguing from the perspective that the instant ability has not completed when checking for speical initiative. I'm not.
The ability has completed. And then the interrupt says it hasn't: "Interrupt is used to temporarily stop a previously completed card’s special ability until the special ability on the interrupt card is completed." - REG
It was completed, but if an interrupt is played then the ability has once again reached the "non-completed" state. So Herod's Dungeon isn't an occupied site if you try to interrupt it.
No, Interrupt doesn't mean the effect is already completed. The Redemption Rulebook notes that it stops the effect thats being 'Interrupted' for the card to use it's effect. (In this Case remove an Occupied Site from the game) then if the Interrupted card was not removed from play, its effect completes.
Herod's Dungeon doesn't complete it's effect if you play Mustard Seed on the Character being Captured.
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right and im pretty much in agreement but now im curious if i block with omri and my opponet plays something itb and kills him the samaria goes back he may or may not die but the decrease still happens? if so can i find ways to interrupt my own omri and effectively get multiple decreases off of him for one site?
You can't Re-activate a character's ability if it's Interrupted/Negated. The decrease works and stays until the Character is healed or removed from play (except to Set-Aside)
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no i think your misunderstanding me what im saying is i have omri and gates i use omri to decrease some other hero besides the rescuer and i end up with initive if i then play an itb like wickedness of the tenants or korahs rebellion have i interrupted omri sending the site back and still maintain the decrease because itb doesn't effect gates.
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no i think your misunderstanding me what im saying is i have omri and gates i use omri to decrease some other hero besides the rescuer and i end up with initive if i then play an itb like wickedness of the tenants or korahs rebellion have i interrupted omri sending the site back and still maintain the decrease because itb doesn't effect gates.
You can't play an interrupt the battle to begin with, because it's not effecting Gates at all. I don't believe that the decrease would stick if Gates went back, but the point is that because Omri isn't doing the removing, you can't target him, you have to target Gates.
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If u Interrupt the Battle, Omri's effect has already completed so no, it's does not go back. Only if Omni was Negated does it go back. The current ruling is that if Omri is Negated, Gates still completes. Personally I disagree with this, but that's the rule.
But the only way to reset that is to shuffle your Sites. (Usually people used Death of Unrightous for that)
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or in this case shimei's malicious curse played on omri
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I may be confused about this, so bear with me a moment. My understanding is that the reason negating Omri is not enough, is that special initiative only extends to attempting to stop the card that is directly responsible. Is this not the case?
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My understanding is that the reason negating Omri is not enough, is that special initiative only extends to attempting to stop the card that is directly responsible. Is this not the case?
This makes sense.
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Let's clarify things a bit. Y'all are arguing from the perspective that the instant ability has not completed when checking for speical initiative. I'm not.
The ability has completed. And then the interrupt says it hasn't: "Interrupt is used to temporarily stop a previously completed card’s special ability until the special ability on the interrupt card is completed." - REG
It was completed, but if an interrupt is played then the ability has once again reached the "non-completed" state. So Herod's Dungeon isn't an occupied site if you try to interrupt it.
Very true, but the remove occurs at the same time as the interrupt and is privy to the occupied trigger:
Faith as a Mustard Seed (Di)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Purple/Yellow • Ability: 3 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: If used by a N.T. Hero, interrupt an occupied Site, an evil Enhancement, or a non-human Evil Character and remove it from the game. • Identifiers: NT, Spiritual Gift • Verse: Luke 17:6
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Very true, but the remove occurs at the same time as the interrupt and is privy to the occupied trigger:
I think the key here is that the capture does complete (since it is an instant ability) and that causes a check for special initiative. At that point the player plays an interrupt card, and at that point the capture becomes incomplete again. Then the interrupt card's SA activates, and at that point the Herod's Dungeon site is empty again (since the capture is incomplete at this point).
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Very true, but the remove occurs at the same time as the interrupt and is privy to the occupied trigger:
I think the key here is that the capture does complete (since it is an instant ability) and that causes a check for special initiative. At that point the player plays an interrupt card, and at that point the capture becomes incomplete again. Then the interrupt card's SA activates, and at that point the Herod's Dungeon site is empty again (since the capture is incomplete at this point).
I will repeat myself:
The remove occurs at the same time as the interrupt and is privy to the occupied trigger:
Faith as a Mustard Seed (Di)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Purple/Yellow • Ability: 3 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: If used by a N.T. Hero, interrupt an occupied Site, an evil Enhancement, or a non-human Evil Character and remove it from the game. • Identifiers: NT, Spiritual Gift • Verse: Luke 17:6
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or in this case shimei's malicious curse played on omri
Yes it would.
I may be confused about this, so bear with me a moment. My understanding is that the reason negating Omri is not enough, is that special initiative only extends to attempting to stop the card that is directly responsible. Is this not the case?
Yes, were talking that if Omri's effect was Negated later on, is the Site shuffled? That's what he's asking.
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The remove occurs at the same time as the interrupt and is privy to the occupied trigger:
Call it madness, call it wisdom, call it whimsy, but I actually am starting to agree with Stamp. If the ability has completed (which it must to be able to interrupt), the site must be occupied. You're choosing the target at the time when it's occupied, and once you're removing it, it doesn't matter if that target is still an occupied site. I was already starting to believe such when arguing against him, but it seemed too crazy to be true.
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Madness. Definitely madness.
;)
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The remove occurs at the same time as the interrupt and is privy to the occupied trigger:
Call it madness, call it wisdom, call it whimsy, but I actually am starting to agree with Stamp. If the ability has completed (which it must to be able to interrupt), the site must be occupied. You're choosing the target at the time when it's occupied, and once you're removing it, it doesn't matter if that target is still an occupied site. I was already starting to believe such when arguing against him, but it seemed too crazy to be true.
But you can't play an enhancement on a hero who is no longer in battle, meaning if you play an interrupt on the hero, it cannot be in the site at that point.
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This is about how mad it sounds.
I either play an interrupt on a hero that is not there or I play an interrupt that doesn't work because it is not fulfilling the requirement.
Wow... that would be weird.
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The prevailing ruling is that "special initiative" takes place during the state of the battle pre-resolution of whatever's doing the removing. If you disagree with that, it's time for a new thread, but that's currently the way it is and as such FaaMS currently cannot stop HD.
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I do disagree. Personally, I prefer that "special initiative" is only used for the losing by removal scenario, and it indeed requires the impacted player to play an interrupt or negate in battle by itself (no hero) in order to reverse the losing by removal scenario. Quit screwing around with timing of instant abilities.
Ideally, I think what would be best is too radical for the current Redemption community. I think the interrupt/negate that is played in a losing by removal scenario should play like healing and territory class enhancements - it should match the brigade of a character in territory. [unnecessary personal criticism]
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The prevailing ruling is that "special initiative" takes place during the state of the battle pre-resolution of whatever's doing the removing.
Pol is correct. I understand what your are saying STAMP, and it's not a bad way to look at it. But it's not the way that "special initiative" has been ruled in the past. You are choosing to see the interrupt as happening after the capture. The current ruling basically sees the interrupt as going back in time to before the capture. Either one could make sense, but without compelling reason, it doesn't make sense to me to go against the status quo.
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The prevailing ruling is that "special initiative" takes place during the state of the battle pre-resolution of whatever's doing the removing.
Pol is correct. I understand what your are saying STAMP, and it's not a bad way to look at it. But it's not the way that "special initiative" has been ruled in the past. You are choosing to see the interrupt as happening after the capture. The current ruling basically sees the interrupt as going back in time to before the capture. Either one could make sense, but without compelling reason, it doesn't make sense to me to go against the status quo.
To be honest, I/P/N and CBI/CBP/CBN is so wack right now...whatever.
This is the most logical solution, though:
Ideally, I think what would be best is too radical for the current Redemption community. I think the interrupt/negate that is played in a losing by removal scenario should play like healing and territory class enhancements - it should match the brigade of a character in territory. [unnecessary personal criticism - yet nesessary for some]
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yet necessary for some]
I saw what you did there :)
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Stamp, I think what you're suggesting would just be more confusing.
Interrupt by nature means that something has started to happen, but you don't let it finish.
By your definition, Taylor Swift would have been able to give her whole speech before Kanye's interruption. :P
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Whatever. I'm tired and hungry. There are some locusts and wild honey with my name on them.