Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: CJSports on January 07, 2011, 03:49:47 PM
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Are you aloud to add a demon that was already in back to battle with gates of hell.
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Are you aloud to add a demon that was already in back to battle with gates of hell.
If I understand your question correctly, you are asking: "Am I allowed to add a demon that was already in battle back to the same battle with the gates of hell?". If that is your question the answer is no. Characters can only enter the same battle one time.
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This is the difference between tournament host and non-tournament host. Not really, but maybe one day we can have test for judge certifications.
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This is the difference between tournament host and non-tournament host. Not really, but maybe one day we can have test for judge certifications.
Perhaps I misunderstood you, are you saying my answer is incorrect? Or did I just misinterpret what you said?
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Yeah, I don't understand what you are saying RTSM.
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He Wants there to be a test in order to be a judge. And then have a list of certified judges.
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is it just me, or was his comment kind of random?
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It was indeed random, yet funny and relevant at the same time. I think he is saying that this question would make a good quiz question for tournament host certification.
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Srry.
+1 Korunks.
It was indeed random, yet funny and relevant at the same time.
Got me pegged to a tee.
I think he is saying that this question would make a good quiz question for tournament host certification.
All you need for that is to host a tournament. To judge one on the other hand...and Cactus can give some incentive while charging for the test to cover cost.
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You can add the demon back to battle if it is generic, shuffled, and you have multiples in your deck. I think.
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You can add the demon back to battle if it is generic, shuffled, and you have multiples in your deck. I think.
sounds wrong and i mean broken. but...
+1 Sauce
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I still don't understand the question. Can you post what GoH does please?
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(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redemptionreg.com%2FREG%2FLinkedDocuments%2FThe%2520Gates%2520of%2520Hell%2520%28TP%29.gif&hash=fd7bcb53ed4d05c0dcb81f0ca19d5807d60c0283)
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(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fredemptionreg.com%2FREG%2FLinkedDocuments%2FThe%2520Gates%2520of%2520Hell%2520%28TP%29.gif&hash=170cc3d405043a87f2596af7d7536986269b5ddf)(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fredemptionreg.com%2FREG%2FLinkedDocuments%2FThe%2520Gates%2520of%2520Hell%2520%28TP%29.gif&hash=170cc3d405043a87f2596af7d7536986269b5ddf) o0o
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ahh, NOW it REALLY takes a long time to load :P
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Are you aloud to add a demon that was already in back to battle with gates of hell.
No you can not. No character may be re-enter a battle they have already been in once placed back into deck. However, you can still used gates to put the demons on the bottom of your deck back into your territory and discard gates to add a demon who has yet to enter battle to the current battle.
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The only exception is with Generic characters. If a generic character has left play, then re-entered play, GoH can re-introduce it to battle. An example would be Wandering Spirit being hit by AotL, brought back with GoH, then re-introduced by Discarding GoH.
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Srry.
Plus 1 Korunks.
Its ok I figured I misinterpreted it.
The only exception is with Generic characters. If a generic character has left play, then re-entered play, GoH can re-introduce it to battle. An example would be Wandering Spirit being hit by AotL, brought back with GoH, then re-introduced by Discarding GoH.
I thought that rule only applied if there were multiple copies in a deck? Which in T1 is a a rare occurrence. Can anyone point to the definitve ruling for this?
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So let me get this straight. If I have a generic demon in battle like WS to a bunch of legions then they AOCP me. I can get them out via gates and put them all back in battle banded but things like Kot and POTW can't re-enter.
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That's correct. The reason the rule works that way is that in cases of generic characters, there is no memory of the character by title in battle, otherwise WS wouldn't be able to band to WS. There is memory of the individual card, but that memory gets erased when the card resets in deck. Therefore, if a generic is brought back out again it has no longer already entered battle.
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That's correct. The reason the rule works that way is that in cases of generic characters, there is no memory of the character by title in battle, otherwise WS wouldn't be able to band to WS. There is memory of the individual card, but that memory gets erased when the card resets in deck. Therefore, if a generic is brought back out again it has no longer already entered battle.
Is this generally true, or only if you have more than one copy of the generic character in your deck?
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I'd say generally true but INE.
If you were walking and you saw someone's face for a second, would you recognize them a month later?
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I'd say generally true but INE.
If you were walking and you saw someone's face for a second, would you recognize them a month later?
I'm asking about official rules. If I only have one Wandering Spirit in my deck, then the next time I see one, I will know it was the same one.
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You can do it as long as it went to your deck. But what if it was just returned to territory then would it be able to re-enter via gates.
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Whether or not you have more than one copy of it doesn't matter. It has to do with how the "once per battle" rule works in relation to generics.
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If that's true, then I have a combo to remember. I just remember it didn't work because of not being able to enter twice. Although, I'm not sure I was planning on shuffling/placing it.
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Thank you everybody, helped alot.
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Whether or not you have more than one copy of it doesn't matter. It has to do with how the "once per battle" rule works in relation to generics.
Do you have any backing for this statement? I found a thread where two elders disagree with that, but it is pretty old (and before the elders were elders...).
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Whether or not you have more than one copy of it doesn't matter. It has to do with how the "once per battle" rule works in relation to generics.[citation needed]
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The only thing I've found in the official rules regarding characters entering battle more than once is this:
If a character is forced to withdraw or withdraws from a battle voluntarily, it may not not re-enter the current battle (see Withdraw in the glossary). Moreover, the character may enter on a new battle on the same turn.
If someone knows of another REG quote on this topic please share it. In that quote I don't find anything about generic vs. unique characters. As it's currently written this rule appears to apply broadly to all characters.
It's my opinion that generic characters should be able to re-enter battle regardless of the number of copies in your deck. I've ruled that way in T2 in the past but I don't recall this ever coming up in T1.
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Last time this question came up, I explained how it worked and an elder agreed with me. There is currently nothing about it one way or the other in any rules document.
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It's my opinion that generic characters should be able to re-enter battle regardless of the number of copies in your deck. I've ruled that way in T2 in the past but I don't recall this ever coming up in T1.
This is how I think it should work also, especially with the addition of Legion.
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It's my opinion that generic characters should be able to re-enter battle regardless of the number of copies in your deck. I've ruled that way in T2 in the past but I don't recall this ever coming up in T1.
This is how I think it should work also, especially with the addition of Legion.
I agree with Gabe/Pol as well, though I have had tournament judges rule differently.
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I agree with Gabe/Pol as well, though I have had tournament judges rule differently.
Which is why we need an official Elder ruling.
Oh wait..... Gabe and now the Professor...... WE HAVE A RULING!! ;D
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Yeah I get the question now that I have refreshed myself of Gates' ability. I believe that generic can enter when ever needed especially since you can have more than one generic character in battle at the same time in T2 and rarely T1 but yes T1 too. Tribal Elder x5 to Jacob to Captain, Tribal Elder is in there and same with the Legions you can have more than one in battle, how come they wouldn't be able to re-enter if needed?
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Ok here we go again.
<rant>
This is yet another case where the REG is incorrect and I would have ruled this wrong. Can we please get this cited in what ever is the official REG corrections thread? (there are two and I have no clue which is the correct one). This whole correction thread approach is useless unless some one actually maintains it. Can we have it clearly labelled? And rename the other one?
</rant>
I am however glad that is resolved.
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Actually the REG is not incorrect about this. It is totally silent on the issue.
Now, to KKFA, it's not quite that easy to get generics back into battle. If a generic character has left battle during a battle phase and is still in territory or set-aside, the battle still remembers that character and it will not be able to re-enter.
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Actually the REG is not incorrect about this. It is totally silent on the issue.
I disagree.
If a character is forced to withdraw or withdraws from a battle voluntarily, it may not not re-enter the current battle (see Withdraw in the glossary). Moreover, the character may enter on a new battle on the same turn.
I would have used this as a guideline and made the wrong ruling.
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Then the fault would have been yours for forgetting about the "cards reset in deck/discard pile" rule.
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But the battle does not reset whether the status of the card did. Is it ruled any where that the battle "forgets" that the character was in the battle, even if the card resets and no longer has the "was in this battle" status?
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Then the fault would have been yours for forgetting about the "cards reset in deck/discard pile" rule.
If absolutely everything resets when a card hits the deck, then I demand to be able to use Jephthah multiple times.
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But the battle does not reset whether the status of the card did. Is it ruled any where that the battle "forgets" that the character was in the battle, even if the card resets and no longer has the "was in this battle" status?
No, and the opposite is never stated either. I've laid this out before, even on this thread. When the REG is silent you have to use logic. I explained how I reached the proper conclusion just through Logic and 3 elders confirmed my findings. It wasn't all that complicated either.
Lambo, nice try :)
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But the battle does not reset whether the status of the card did. Is it ruled any where that the battle "forgets" that the character was in the battle, even if the card resets and no longer has the "was in this battle" status?
No, and the opposite is never stated either. I've laid this out before, even on this thread. When the REG is silent you have to use logic. I explained how I reached the proper conclusion just through Logic and 3 elders confirmed my findings. It wasn't all that complicated either.
I am not arguing that your scenario is incorrect or complicated. Just that without this ruling the information in the REG would not have led to your conclusion.
You said:
The reason the rule works that way is that in cases of generic characters, there is no memory of the character by title in battle, otherwise WS wouldn't be able to band to WS. There is memory of the individual card, but that memory gets erased when the card resets in deck. Therefore, if a generic is brought back out again it has no longer already entered battle.
part one: The reason the rule works that way is that in cases of generic characters, there is no memory of the character by title in battle, otherwise WS wouldn't be able to band to WS.
Where in the REG is the rules for what the battle "remembers"? I cannot locate it.
part two: There is memory of the individual card, but that memory gets erased when the card resets in deck.
So you are stating that the battle does remember the card but that it gets reset when the card resets. Where is that in the REG? I can't locate it. If that is not what you are saying please correct me.
part: three Therefore, if a generic is brought back out again it has no longer already entered battle.
Yes this follows from your premises, but I am suggesting without digging throught the forums your logical and "simple" deduction would have been impossible because the REG does not, in it's current form, support your premises. So how could a host (aside from spending copious amounts of time on the forums) make the same deduction? If the REG actually does confirm those premises please correct me.
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It's logic. There must be some mechanism by which a generic character may be banded into battle by another copy of itself, yet can't re-enter battle if forced to withdraw from battle. The only logical solution to that is the battle memory solution, which has precedence in that "per game" cards are "remembered" by the game. As a logical extrapolation, we can then assume that since cards like Unknown Nation can add generics of a kind that is already in battle to battle, the status of memory must be tied to the individual card and resets like all other attributes when in deck or Discard.
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Clearly what is "logical" is subjective. This is a situation that the REG needs to no longer be silent about.
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As a logical extrapolation, we can then assume that since cards like Unknown Nation can add generics of a kind that is already in battle to battle, the status of memory must be tied to the individual card and resets like all other attributes when in deck or Discard.
Add the basis for that extrapolation, the Unknown Nation ruling, is it defined in the REG? Or does it also require knowledge of a ruling made on the forums? Again I can find no mention of that ruling in the REG. Whence comes this revelation?
When I am a host and have been asked a question I don't have the luxury of hours to dig through several old posts and then spend time pondering until I reach that conclusion. I need an answer fairly quickly.
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cards also reset in hand, right? so would that work the same?
as far as the ruling goes, I can't think of any other logical, consistent way to rule it.