Author Topic: Elders, please explain (Read 3665 times)

Alex_Olijar · « **on:** August 18, 2011, 01:32:53 PM »

Quote from: faithraider on August 18, 2011, 01:09:17 PM

Could all of you who are attending the Long Island BOOSTER BONANZA , do me a favor. During some of the events you play could you add an intro-prep phase ( the same one we use for teams events) for type 1- 2p categories. The Elders would like to know if it would lessen the effect of 1st Turn Mayhem. We will test this set up to determine if it corrects most of the negatives. At some point we may incorporate it as a game rule ( we need to know before the next rule book is printed)
HAVE FUN wish I could be there!!

Thanks JOHN

I was under the impression Rob hated in the intro-prep idea and it was never going to be seriously considered. Is the intro prep phase actually being considered?

faithraider · « **Reply #1 on:** August 18, 2011, 01:36:48 PM »

This is a test to see if it fixes the abuses of first turn Mayhem. There are no concrete changes being made right now. We just need to see if in fact it helps alleviate the situation.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #2 on:** August 18, 2011, 01:43:48 PM »

Right, I was just wondering why this is being considered all of a sudden after this post

Quote from: Gabe on August 02, 2009, 12:49:19 PM

Rob mentioned that for 2P only (not for MP) that Redemption is going to try the 2nd player draw on their first turn rule. He said he'd make a post with the details soon.

As a side note, he's not in favor of the intro prep phase. It didn't sound like that will be ever be used for official play.

suggests that Rob doesn't like the idea.

It's also already been well theorized that the idea will power up defenses even more and cause more timeouts by eliminating "cheap" first/second turn rescues. IIRC, we used in ROOT for a couple months. I don't remember how that worked.

lp670sv · « **Reply #3 on:** August 18, 2011, 01:44:58 PM »

HALLELUJAH!

Gabe · « **Reply #4 on:** August 18, 2011, 03:02:08 PM »

It's simply being considered right now. The elders and their play groups are testing intro prep to see if it takes the sting out of FTM. There was talk about testing it in ROOT too, but I can't speak to that.

STAMP · « **Reply #5 on:** August 18, 2011, 03:07:13 PM »

It would have been really nice to test alternate ideas for other cards prior to settling for erratas.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #6 on:** August 18, 2011, 03:52:37 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on August 18, 2011, 03:07:13 PM

It would have been really nice to test alternate ideas for other cards prior to settling for erratas.

I'm not sure what you're getting at STAMP, care to elaborate?

Quote from: Gabe on August 18, 2011, 03:02:08 PM

It's simply being considered right now. The elders and their play groups are testing intro prep to see if it takes the sting out of FTM. There was talk about testing it in ROOT too, but I can't speak to that.

This is true. Rob has not given input as of yet in the most recent discussion, and I don't think it would be a good idea to incorporate it into any official tournaments until he gives approval. But anyone who wants to test it in online games, we would appreciate feedback, especially in regards to how it affects the impact of a First Turn Mayhem (FTM).

Smokey · « **Reply #7 on:** August 18, 2011, 07:00:19 PM »

I feel like this will be extraordinarily hard to test, even in an online setting.

You'd have to allow your opponent to search for Mayhem, let him use it first turn, play out the game.
Reset, use intro prep, make sure he FTMs again.

Switch sides so each player has done this.

And you still might not get any good feedback from 4 games if neither of you get draws that would matter with intro prep.

lp670sv · « **Reply #8 on:** August 18, 2011, 07:09:54 PM »

Quote from: Smokey on August 18, 2011, 07:00:19 PM

I feel like this will be extraordinarily hard to test, even in an online setting.

You'd have to allow your opponent to search for Mayhem, let him use it first turn, play out the game.
Reset, use intro prep, make sure he doesn't first turn Mayhem, play out the game.

Switch sides so each player has done this.

And you still might not get any good feedback from 4 games if neither of you get draws that would matter with intro prep.

You wouldn't have to do that. We already know there is a stunning correlation between FTM and winning. (It's the only time I ever even come close to beating SomeKittens) First turn Mayhems will still happen, but they wont be as effective because your opponent will have had a chance to drop some cards. If a first turn mayhem happens, record if the player that did it won. Compile those results and see if its still as direct a correlation.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #9 on:** August 18, 2011, 07:15:47 PM »

Quote from: Smokey on August 18, 2011, 07:00:19 PM

I feel like this will be extraordinarily hard to test, even in an online setting.

You'd have to allow your opponent to search for Mayhem, let him use it first turn, play out the game.
Reset, use intro prep, make sure he doesn't first turn Mayhem, play out the game.

Switch sides so each player has done this.

And you still might not get any good feedback from 4 games if neither of you get draws that would matter with intro prep.

The idea is not to test the "same game" with and without FTM, the idea is to test games with intro-prep, and see if FTM is still the huge problem that a lot of people say it is. If FTM actually shows up in 20-30% of games, as statistics predict and players claim, then it won't take too many games to figure out if intro-prep helps. If a game where a FTM was used ends up not being the one-sided game it often turns out to be, then that's evidence that intro-prep helps. That's the kind of feedback we need. I remember at least a couple of months in ROOT where it seemed as if every other score report was "5-something, FTM really killed me, etc.".

EDIT: I agree with lp.

lp670sv · « **Reply #10 on:** August 18, 2011, 07:19:22 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on August 18, 2011, 07:15:47 PM

EDIT: I agree with lp.

Holy crap someone on these boards agreed with me.

slugfencer · « **Reply #11 on:** August 18, 2011, 07:20:14 PM »

Would somebody please paste the "intro prep" rules? (can't find em)
Thanks!

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #12 on:** August 18, 2011, 07:24:51 PM »

I believe intro-prep phase is where you can place your characters, arts (not sure if these can be active), sites, and forts down before the first player's turn. No dominants are allowed in the prep phase.

Also, I'd say that none of the abilities should activate UNTIL the first turn. So you cant put down gates of samaria, a king, and 3 samaria sites to kill off the other persons characters before the game even begins.

Smokey · « **Reply #13 on:** August 18, 2011, 07:35:57 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on August 18, 2011, 07:15:47 PM

Quote from: Smokey on August 18, 2011, 07:00:19 PM
I feel like this will be extraordinarily hard to test, even in an online setting.

You'd have to allow your opponent to search for Mayhem, let him use it first turn, play out the game.
Reset, use intro prep, make sure he doesn't first turn Mayhem, play out the game.

Switch sides so each player has done this.

And you still might not get any good feedback from 4 games if neither of you get draws that would matter with intro prep.

The idea is not to test the "same game" with and without FTM, the idea is to test games with intro-prep, and see if FTM is still the huge problem that a lot of people say it is. If FTM actually shows up in 20-30% of games, as statistics predict and players claim, then it won't take too many games to figure out if intro-prep helps. If a game where a FTM was used ends up not being the one-sided game it often turns out to be, then that's evidence that intro-prep helps. That's the kind of feedback we need. I remember at least a couple of months in ROOT where it seemed as if every other score report was "5-something, FTM really killed me, etc.".

EDIT: I agree with lp.

I dun goof'd with how I wrote that, but I fixed it.
I still think it's a good idea to test with and without intro prep, so that if intro prep has an effect on how hard FTMs hit that can be noted easier since both games would happen around the same time.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #14 on:** August 18, 2011, 07:40:34 PM »

If you feel that testing the same game with and without Mayhem is best, please feel free to do that, and let us know how it goes. But it's certainly not necessary.

Ken4Christ4ever · « **Reply #15 on:** August 18, 2011, 08:01:09 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on August 18, 2011, 07:24:51 PM

I believe intro-prep phase is where you can place your characters, arts (not sure if these can be active), sites, and forts down before the first player's turn. No dominants are allowed in the prep phase.

Also, I'd say that none of the abilities should activate UNTIL the first turn. So you cant put down gates of samaria, a king, and 3 samaria sites to kill off the other persons characters before the game even begins.

I asked many questions about intro-prep at Nationals in teams, and you are allowed to do ANYTHING that you are normally allowed to do during your preparation phase, which would include playing dominants. I didn't ask about dominants, but I did ask about many other things. Here are what we were specifically told we could do:
- Lay down characters
- Lay down artifacts
- Activate artifacts
- Place weapon-class enhancements
- Play set-aside cards (and yes, your first turn counts as the first turn it was set aside)

So if playing dominants is allowed, this would not make any difference in the ability to have a first-turn Mayhem (which would be played during the intro-prep). Are dominants the ONLY exception to what is normally allowed during your prep phase? If so, that seems like a random ruling...

theselfevident · « **Reply #16 on:** August 18, 2011, 08:29:17 PM »

Quote from: Ken4Christ4ever on August 18, 2011, 08:01:09 PM

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on August 18, 2011, 07:24:51 PM
I believe intro-prep phase is where you can place your characters, arts (not sure if these can be active), sites, and forts down before the first player's turn. No dominants are allowed in the prep phase.

Also, I'd say that none of the abilities should activate UNTIL the first turn. So you cant put down gates of samaria, a king, and 3 samaria sites to kill off the other persons characters before the game even begins.

I asked many questions about intro-prep at Nationals in teams, and you are allowed to do ANYTHING that you are normally allowed to do during your preparation phase, which would include playing dominants. I didn't ask about dominants, but I did ask about many other things. Here are what we were specifically told we could do:
- Lay down characters
- Lay down artifacts
- Activate artifacts
- Place weapon-class enhancements
- Play set-aside cards (and yes, your first turn counts as the first turn it was set aside)

So if playing dominants is allowed, this would not make any difference in the ability to have a first-turn Mayhem (which would be played during the intro-prep). Are dominants the ONLY exception to what is normally allowed during your prep phase? If so, that seems like a random ruling...

I don't think its as random as making Lampstand of the Sanctuary not being able to protect from Mayhem. I think this is a good response to my frustration with that ruling. It equally weakens a card that that ruling strengthened. Kuddos to the Elders!

Irish_Luck · « **Reply #17 on:** August 18, 2011, 08:30:14 PM »

Quote from: Ken4Christ4ever on August 18, 2011, 08:01:09 PM

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on August 18, 2011, 07:24:51 PM
I believe intro-prep phase is where you can place your characters, arts (not sure if these can be active), sites, and forts down before the first player's turn. No dominants are allowed in the prep phase.

Also, I'd say that none of the abilities should activate UNTIL the first turn. So you cant put down gates of samaria, a king, and 3 samaria sites to kill off the other persons characters before the game even begins.

I asked many questions about intro-prep at Nationals in teams, and you are allowed to do ANYTHING that you are normally allowed to do during your preparation phase, which would include playing dominants. I didn't ask about dominants, but I did ask about many other things. Here are what we were specifically told we could do:
- Lay down characters
- Lay down artifacts
- Activate artifacts
- Place weapon-class enhancements
- Play set-aside cards (and yes, your first turn counts as the first turn it was set aside)

So if playing dominants is allowed, this would not make any difference in the ability to have a first-turn Mayhem (which would be played during the intro-prep). Are dominants the ONLY exception to what is normally allowed during your prep phase? If so, that seems like a random ruling...

This would help against first turn mayhem because you would still be able to draw. First turn Mayhem will still be good but it won't be as good if intro prep is included.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #18 on:** August 18, 2011, 08:32:01 PM »

I still strongly feel SAs on cards should not activate until your first turn. Otherwise, you could troll the opponent by activating Captured ark on the prep phase, or kill things with crown of thorns / PwD / Gates of Sam.

Irish_Luck · « **Reply #19 on:** August 18, 2011, 08:35:13 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on August 18, 2011, 08:32:01 PM

I still strongly feel SAs on cards should not activate until your first turn. Otherwise, you could troll the opponent by activating Captured ark on the prep phase, or kill things with crown of thorns / PwD / Gates of Sam.

I agree, the only thing that this phase should only eliminate first turn Mayhem and not cause other possible problems.

theselfevident · « **Reply #20 on:** August 18, 2011, 08:37:45 PM »

Quote from: Irish_Luck on August 18, 2011, 08:35:13 PM

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on August 18, 2011, 08:32:01 PM
I still strongly feel SAs on cards should not activate until your first turn. Otherwise, you could troll the opponent by activating Captured ark on the prep phase, or kill things with crown of thorns / PwD / Gates of Sam.
I agree, the only thing that this phase should only eliminate first turn Mayhem and not cause other possible problems.

I think the only other option is to not allow Dominants to be played during the 1st round...

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #21 on:** August 18, 2011, 08:39:26 PM »

Or, simply errata Mayhem to have a clause that excludes it from working on the first round.

Irish_Luck · « **Reply #22 on:** August 18, 2011, 08:48:41 PM »

Erratas can be a problem because not everybody (especially newer groups) keeps up to date with the current erratas. Erratas should be used only when necessary.

mjwolfe · « **Reply #23 on:** August 18, 2011, 08:49:08 PM »

The way we have been playing it in teams is that after deciding who will go first, the players each take an intro-prep phase in the order that they will get to take their first turn. So, the player who will go first does an intro-prep phase (doing anything that they could do in any other preparation phase), then when they are done the next player takes a preparation phase, etc. Once all of the players have taken their intro-prep phase then the first player starts their first turn. The ordering of the intro-prep phases helped define the effects of players using Captured Ark, etc.

Having the intro-prep be just like any other preparation phase keeps from needing a bunch of extra rules for intro-preps and would be highly desirable for getting this to work with newer players in my playgroup.

I'd really like to see this become part of T1-2p.

Mike

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #24 on:** August 18, 2011, 09:10:07 PM »

If intro-prep ends up not working, then I propose this simple fix for Mayhem:

Each player must shuffle hand into deck to draw six. Cannot be used during the first round of the game.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #25 on:** August 18, 2011, 10:15:14 PM »

I am just going to be frank and say I think the intro-prep phase is really dumb and will only slow the game down. I'm sorry Mayhem is so good, but that's just the way it is.

If a card is so powerful that we need to change the rule of the game, we should probably just ban the card.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #26 on:** August 18, 2011, 10:24:00 PM »

Or add the extra clause I proposed.

That would fix FTM completely, but still let it be strong.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #27 on:** August 18, 2011, 11:02:11 PM »

To test just how strong FTM really is:

I propose an experiment: http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/strategies-and-combos/first-turn-mayhem-an-experiment

STAMP · « **Reply #28 on:** August 19, 2011, 01:01:51 AM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on August 18, 2011, 10:15:14 PM

I am just going to be frank and say I think the intro-prep phase is really dumb and will only slow the game down. I'm sorry Mayhem is so good, but that's just the way it is.

If a card is so powerful that we need to change the rule of the game, we should probably just ban the card.

But I'd really like to know what Alex thinks.

theselfevident · « **Reply #29 on:** August 19, 2011, 01:06:47 AM »

Why can't the rule just be that during the 1st round dominants can't be played? Problem solved.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #30 on:** August 19, 2011, 01:16:11 AM »

Quote from: theselfevident on August 19, 2011, 01:06:47 AM

Why can't the rule just be that during the 1st round dominants can't be played? Problem solved.

Mayhem is the only thing to worry about. If you go that far, the first round might as well just be intro-prep.

theselfevident · « **Reply #31 on:** August 19, 2011, 01:19:10 AM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on August 19, 2011, 01:16:11 AM

Quote from: theselfevident on August 19, 2011, 01:06:47 AM
Why can't the rule just be that during the 1st round dominants can't be played? Problem solved.
Mayhem is the only thing to worry about. If you go that far, the first round might as well just be intro-prep.

Isn't that what it used to be pretty much?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #32 on:** August 19, 2011, 10:11:17 AM »

Quote from: mjwolfe on August 18, 2011, 08:49:08 PM

The way we have been playing it in teams is that after deciding who will go first, the players each take an intro-prep phase in the order that they will get to take their first turn. So, the player who will go first does an intro-prep phase (doing anything that they could do in any other preparation phase), then when they are done the next player takes a preparation phase, etc. Once all of the players have taken their intro-prep phase then the first player starts their first turn. The ordering of the intro-prep phases helped define the effects of players using Captured Ark, etc.

Having the intro-prep be just like any other preparation phase keeps from needing a bunch of extra rules for intro-preps and would be highly desirable for getting this to work with newer players in my playgroup.

I'd really like to see this become part of T1-2p.

Since there is no drawing, if a person played Mayhem the most card advantage they could get would be +7 (putting down 7 cards, playing Mayhem, drawing 6, while everyone else just draws 6). That is similar to Hur+Gifts, and is not nearly as bad as our current situation.

I would also be willing to have a rule that dominants can't be played during "intro-prep", which would allow everyone to put down some cards, and make Mayhem even less drastic if played 1st turn.

Gabe · « **Reply #33 on:** August 19, 2011, 10:21:17 AM »

I tried to FTM at Nationals during intro prep in Teams and it was ruled that Dominants can't be played during intro prep. That's the first I've ever heard of such a rule. I know I've seen GoYS played several times during intro prep and nobody complained...

Professoralstad · « **Reply #34 on:** August 19, 2011, 10:23:40 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on August 19, 2011, 10:21:17 AM

I tried to FTM at Nationals during intro prep in Teams and it was ruled that Dominants can't be played during intro prep. That's the first I've ever heard of such a rule. I know I've seen GoYS played several times during intro prep and nobody complained...

Maybe that's just how we play it here. I for one have always heard that dominants can't be played during the intro-prep. I think that should still be the case.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #35 on:** August 19, 2011, 10:51:52 AM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on August 19, 2011, 10:23:40 AM

Maybe that's just how we play it here. I for one have always heard that dominants can't be played during the intro-prep. I think that should still be the case.

Yep, that must just be the MN way of doing it, because I know they've been allowed in past TEAMS tournaments. I suppose it'll have to be something that we make an official ruling on so that we can standardize it across regions. Since we have some difference in opinion between elders, we should probably just do that on the other side and then come back with a unified answer.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #36 on:** August 19, 2011, 02:44:15 PM »

I don't think the Teams rules on the tournament guide says you can play dominants during the intro prep phase.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #37 on:** August 19, 2011, 02:47:47 PM »

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on August 19, 2011, 02:44:15 PM

I don't think the Teams rules on the tournament guide says you can play dominants during the intro prep phase.

But does it say you can't? If not, then you can.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #38 on:** August 19, 2011, 02:55:08 PM »

This is what it says:

The "intro-prep phase" is used, which allows all players to put down characters, warrior-class and territory-class enhancements, fortresses, sites (and put LSs in them), and artifacts out of their original draw-8 before the first turn.

It doesn't mention dominants at all (I'm not saying that means you can't, I'm just saying what it says)

News:

Author Topic: Elders, please explain (Read 3665 times)

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