Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Why does "Egyptian Horses" drawing ability not work with the Egyptian Archer (there is a specific exception on Egyptian Horses)?

Two Thousand Horses on Assyrian Archer seems does exactly the same thing; except that Two Thousand Horses gets to draw cards while Egyptian Horses on Egyptian Archer does not...I'm just curious why that is.

Thanks,
EgYpTiAn

"The horses have left the barn...again." -King Tut

The playtesters have learned lessons from past cards and used those to improve the design of new cards.  Two specific "fixes" I notice on Egyptian Horses are:

1) It allows you to play an evil enhancement so that if the character is converted it doesn't make for another "play first" Hero.

2) It doesn't work on Archers.  Yes 2KHorses works with Assyrian Archer.  Egyptian Horses avoids a situation like this;

Block with A. Archer, "shoot" a Hero, draw 2 from horses, band to an A. Archer #2
2nd A.Archer "shoots" a Hero, draw 2 from horses, band to A.Archer #3
3rd A.Archer "shoots a Hero, draw 2 from horses, play Forgotten History.

Three Heroes died, you drew 6 cards, interrupted the ability for all three Archers to discard themself and ended the battle.  You have higher numbers than the Hero in battle so the rescue fails.  It's not that uncommon in T2.  Anyone who's faced that defense probably agrees, Redemption doesn't need more of that.

So what's to stop a similar play with Assyrian Archer + 2K Horses?

Nothing at all. "Fixing" Egyptian Chariots is damage control, that's all. Don't want two different brigades to do all that junk.

Quote from: Egyptian on November 10, 2008, 12:13:51 PM

So what's to stop a similar play with Assyrian Archer + 2K Horses?

Nothing at all.

Correct.  That Assyrian Archer "nastiness" was one of my T2 defenses last year.

Or Caleb swords them depends on the color ya play sometimes. Hidden treasures + arron's rod.

Salome has plenty of grace to be doled out.   

Quite true indeed--Salome single-handedly makes White viable in T2 once again.

Quote from: TimMierz on November 10, 2008, 12:25:25 PM

Quote from: Egyptian on November 10, 2008, 12:13:51 PM

So what's to stop a similar play with Assyrian Archer + 2K Horses?

Nothing at all.

Correct.  That Assyrian Archer "nastiness" was one of my T2 defenses last year.

 Yours and like 3/4 of everyone playing T2 at Nats... good grief. I actually argued for 20 minutes as to why that Forgotten History trick shouldn't work, but I was denied.

 Well, at least the new cards disallow that.

That combo does work with Egyptian Archers if you get creative enough.

1) Egyptian archer enters battle, kills a hero, draws 2, bands to another Egyptian archer
2) Band in 5 archers, killing with each one
3) Band to a non-archer (since Egyptian archer says band to an Egyptian) with Egyptian Horses and draw 2 play Wonders Forgotten

You could also modify this with Egyptian Spear to discard a bunch of cards then play Wonders forgotten. (up to 6 if the character is Huge Egyptian , or another character that can discard a card)

I was thinking on that. My idea doesn't work as well though :-/ (using potiphar play WF forgot you gotta play before banding)

Still waiting on a babylonian archer myself.  

Arabian archers aren't good enough?

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on November 12, 2008, 12:35:35 AM

Quote from: Kor on November 11, 2008, 10:12:53 PM

Still waiting on a babylonian archer myself.  

Arabian archers aren't good enough?

Nope, they can't use Babylonian Horses full ability.

Does it matter? I don't think crimson has a end the battle ability like PG, Gold, Or Brown

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on November 12, 2008, 12:47:29 PM

Does it matter? I don't think crimson has a end the battle ability like PG, Gold, Or Brown

Crimson does have Arrogance, however, which makes Forgotten History and the other battle enders look pale and weakly by comparison.

True, but then why not just use nerg+horses to make the whole kitten kabudle CBN?

Because the card says, "(except an archer)"

Seriously though, the rule was devised when the PTB decided they didn't want another rendition of 5x Assyrian Archer and 5x Two Thousand Horses allowing you to play 5x next enhancements in a T2 deck.

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on November 12, 2008, 02:22:00 PM

I thought Kitten Kabudle was New Testament!?!

 

To me, i can see why they change certain things...but it just makes it feel like they 'dumbed down' egyptians and left Assyrians alone.  If that keeps up, soon everyone and their dog will be using PG because it'll be the only brigade that hasn't been dumbed down.   

They didn't exactly leave Assyrians alone. For several years, up until FoOF, PG was the only color that had a Horses enhancement. Since then, Syrians/Romans, Philistines, and, Babylonians, and Egyptians have all gotten their own, but they each have a way to not be abused by archers. When 2kH was printed there was no Assyrian Archer (and IMO there never should have been) but once it came out, it was realized that they would be quite powerful. By this time, there was no way to avoid allowing this kind of play, but there were ways to avoid it being possible by other brigades/cultures. Hence, none of the other Horsies enhancements can be used by Archers.

Honestly, I didn't see any PG defense at the T2 tournament I went to recently. Yes, for awhile, Assyrians were the bees knees in T2, but Philistines and Babylonians have gotten much better in the past couple sets, while Assyrians have received minimal additional power.

If you block with assyrian archers w/ 2K Horses on him and use the archers ability to kill a hero then play forgotten history is assyrian archers still discarded after battle?

That is what I was thinking, just wanted to make sure. I couldn't find any written proof on the boards.