Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: christiangamer25 on August 13, 2009, 01:30:10 AM
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can dragon raid actually kill a face down ec on a site im getting mixed replys need something official please
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Dragon Raid
Type: Site • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard all evil cards in one site (not Lost Souls).
The default is that Dragon Raid targets evil cards that are in play, since it doesn't say otherwise. A face down Evil Character is out of play so it would not be targeted.
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Since Dragon Raid specifies a location more specific than just "in play," wouldn't it go beyond the default? If that's the case, then it does handle face-down ECs.
My precedent is Lampstand of the Sanctuary. Because it specifies "not in battle," it doesn't use the default and instead protects things like the Land of Redemption and hand as well.
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Good point. You might be right. :scratch:
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I may be crazy.
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I may be crazy.
It's not fair to base your sanity, or lack thereof, on the outcome to this discussion.
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I apologize for my hyperbole/references to songs I don't like.
The REG says: "Unless specifically stated, all special abilities apply to the characters in play, not out of play."
And: "Cards that are placed face down are considered out of play. Only special abilities that specifically target “face down” cards apply to cards that are face down."
This much we know. Two questions then:
1) Does Dragon Raid's "in one site" count as something "specifically stated" and allow it to target out-of-play cards in a site?
2) Even if so, does the second quote mean that face-down cards are so special that unless Dragon Raid said "face-down," it couldn't target them anyways?
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This satisfies the "unless specifically stated" clause. A site is in a particular location, so you can target that character on that site. That is what DragonRaid was made to do ;) I guess I'm not 100% sure about whether the face down statement in the REG is applicable. Comments?
Mike
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If the card is face down, how would you know it is "evil?"
I think that we need some type of clarification about what is allowed to target face-down cards other than cards that specify "face down."
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I would say that according to what the REG says that unless Dragon Raid said "Discard all Evil Cards face up or face down in one site" that it cannot target and thus discard a face down EC.
If the card is face down, how would you know it is "evil?"
I think that we need some type of clarification about what is allowed to target face-down cards other than cards that specify "face down."
If a card is face down number one they know it is evil so it is a trust issue, and two I don't believe there is any way a good card could be on one of your sites (except a captured hero who is a LS and no longer a hero). According to the REG a card must specifically target a face down card to be able to effect it. I think that seems clear enough, no? That is how I see it. :)
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I may be crazy.
But it just may be a lunatic you're looking for...
I got your reference. ;)
But I always assumed that since it specified ALL evil cards on a site, then face-down evil cards would apply. And regarding the question how would you know, well consider that the evil character is face down there due to a special ability, and you'll be aware of what the special ability says. Ergo, you'll be able to know if it's an evil card or not.
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Yeah it is a sticky situation...it does say all evil cards, but according to the REG it seems that it would be labeled as a "face down" card not an evil card because the REG is so specific about how to discard face down cards. I can see it going either way...
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yeah to perg or not to perg ah the great purple site of doom lol
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When a hero is set aside with Ambush, they are able to begin a rescue because it is "known" that they are a hero. It think it is simply "known" that it is an EC on the site -- especially since I can't think of any cards that allow anything else to be placed on a site face down -- and thus is known to be a legal target for DragonRaid.
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That I can agree with, but then the REG needs to be slightly adjusted to allow special circumstances that don't specifically say "face down."
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right, or it just needs to be confirmed that dragon raid will not discard a face down evil character. Because as the text is written now and how the REG is worded Dragon Raid can't discard a face down EC.
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When a hero is set aside with Ambush, they are able to begin a rescue because it is "known" that they are a hero. It think it is simply "known" that it is an EC on the site -- especially since I can't think of any cards that allow anything else to be placed on a site face down -- and thus is known to be a legal target for DragonRaid.
Interestingly, the REG says that face-down ECs don't count for Silly Women.
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right, or it just needs to be confirmed that dragon raid will not discard a face down evil character. Because as the text is written now and how the REG is worded Dragon Raid can't discard a face down EC.
Actually, as the text on the card states, evil characters *should* be discarded, because it says "all evil cards." And you're going to know that the face-down card on the site is an evil card. It just depends on whether the REG will be changed to allow those to be discarded or not.
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Well I know it technically should be discarded b/c it is an evil card. But the REG is so specific a discard ability MUST say "face down" for it to be able to discard a face down card and it doesn't matter whether or not you know what to face down card is or not.
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And you're going to know that the face-down card on the site is an evil card.
The Silly Women ruling would suggest that "knowing" it is an EC is irrelevant.
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And you're going to know that the face-down card on the site is an evil card.
The Silly Women ruling would suggest that "knowing" it is an EC is irrelevant.
Well, that was more-so to indicate that to the best of my knowledge, you will always know which alignment a face-down card is going to be due to the special ability on the card bringing the face-down card to the table.
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I agree that we will know the alignment, but that has no impact on other SAs for ruling purposes.
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Silly Women
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: * / * • Class: None • Special Ability: Character's abilities (*/*) are equal to the number of all Evil Characters in play. • Identifiers: Generic NT Female Human • Verse: II Timothy 3:6-7 • Availability: Women booster packs (Uncommon)
That's why Silly Women is different. Face down cards are not in play. However, I would say that since Dragon Raid mentions a specific location (a site), it doesn't default to in play, and can target face down EC's. Though, I admit face down EC's might be a bit more of a viable strategy if it didn't.
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Hey,
The REG says: ... "Cards that are placed face down are considered out of play. Only special abilities that specifically target “face down” cards apply to cards that are face down."
Does Dragon Raid specifically target "face down" cards? No. So can Dragon Raid target a "face down" card? No.
Seems pretty simple to me.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
The REG says: ... "Cards that are placed face down are considered out of play. Only special abilities that specifically target “face down” cards apply to cards that are face down."
Does Dragon Raid specifically target "face down" cards? No. So can Dragon Raid target a "face down" card? No.
Seems pretty simple to me.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
+1 That is what I've been saying all along!
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Does Dragon Raid specifically target "face down" cards? No. So can Dragon Raid target a "face down" card? No.
Seems pretty simple to me.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
So ANB does not shuffle cards face down in the Artifact Pile, correct?
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ANB should be banned...it just causes so much trouble. :P Though I think this one is easy!
A New Beginning:
"ALL players shuffle ALL cards in the field of play, set-aside areas and their hands back into their draw pile. Only cards in Land of Redemption and discard piles remain. ALL players Draw 8 new cards. Holder may begin a new turn"
Only cards in LoR and discard piles remain...are face down artifacts either one of those? No, so they get shuffled.
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Maybe they were just not mentioned since SAs that do not specifically target face-down cards have no effect on face-down cards.
Seems pretty simple to me. ;)
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I see what your point is but I think they are two completely different situations...I don't think you can compare ANB to any other situation because it is a card like none other with an ability completely unique to itself.
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Dragon Raid and ANB both say "all" cards. I don't see a difference. ;)
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I am just saying I don't think there can be a comparison made between ANB and any other card. That is how I view that card.
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I don't know. In a FBTN deck, ANB looks like any other green enhancement to me. ;D
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haha ok you got me there :laugh:
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Dragon Raid and ANB both say "all" cards. I don't see a difference. ;)
I think you are right. "All cards" on Dragon Raid would include face up cards, face down cards, enhancements, EC's, fortresses...anything evil on that site is discarded. So you are right methinks!
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So which is it? O_o; Can an "All" ability beat out an out of play rule?
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I know ANB shuffles face down stuff because it just says "all cards," and a face down card is still a card. However, can a face down card have a good or evil attached to it?
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If a Face-down card can start a Rescue attempt (which is something only heroes can do) via Ambush, then I think they do keep alignments.
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So which is it? O_o; Can an "All" ability beat out an out of play rule?
The whole point of giving cards special abilities is to suspend a normal rule of the game. If a particular card says "all" evil cards, I see no problem with allowing it to discard face-down evil cards, as well.
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I know ANB shuffles face down stuff because it just says "all cards," and a face down card is still a card.
To be fair, ANB says "ALL cards." Perhaps the all-caps bypasses the game rule? :)
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Mabye they were right when STAMP went and talked in ALL CAPS to make rulings official.
I still think ANB should get a play as that specifies "all cards in play, players hands, set aside areas, and face down..."
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Hey,
Authority of Christ doesn't discard a face down evil character in The Darkness even though it says "all." Dragon Raid doesn't discard a face down evil character on a site even though it says "all."
The "Only cards in Land of Redemption and Discard Pile remain" clause on A New Beginning is the excuse we're going to use for why A New Beginning gets face down cards when other cards don't.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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AoC/P says "in play" though.
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The "Only cards in Land of Redemption and Discard Pile remain" clause on A New Beginning is the excuse we're going to use for why A New Beginning gets face down cards when other cards don't.
So if that one clause is the reason, and it creates exceptions to game rules, then even "protected" cards should be shuffled, right?