Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Ironica on August 29, 2009, 12:25:10 PM
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I came a pond this situation in a game I played this morning. I had swift horses equip to Nebuchadnezzar. When I block, am I able to search/play the enhancement using Neb's ability and then draw two and play another enhancement (assuming that the first one doesn't remove the hero in battle of course)?
Nebuchadnezzar
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: 6 / 8 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: If no Daniel Hero is in play, search deck for an O.T. crimson card and add it to hand or battle. Cannot be negated. • Attributes: Babylonian King, Fought Earthly Battle • Identifiers: OT Male Human, King (Babylonia), Royalty, Fought Earthly Battle • Verse: Daniel 4:30 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs
Swift Horses
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: Weapon • Special Ability: Interrupt the battle and draw two cards. If used by a Babylonian, you may play the next Enhancement. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Habakkuk 1:8 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 5)
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Assuming no Daniel Hero is in play, absolutely.
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Yeah, why wouldn't you?
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Rather than searching/playing an enhancement the first time, you might want to search/play Nergelsharezer, and then play your enhancement CBN. If you really want to play two enhancements, however, +1 to both RDT amd Bubbleboy.
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Which ability would kick in first though? The EC or the EE since Neb's sa is CBN that can change things a tad.
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I would rule the EC, because he can't be negated, therefore he can't be interrupted either, even though he has swift horses on him. I could be wrong... but that's what I would rule.
~Marti
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Marti's Right, Regardless, Order of Operations states that Characters activate then Weapons.
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I was about to post that you could add Nergal to battle then play the next enhancement, but I remembered that ANY ability that adds characters to battle comes AFTER warrior class. If you choose to add Nergal to battle, that is considered banding, and must go after horses.
*EDIT*
However, if you add an enhancement to battle with Neb, then it wouldnt be a banding ability, and therefore would be played before the enhancement you play off horses.
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So how would that work? Would you search for the character, show him to your opponent, and then just let him sit in Limbo until the ability of Swift Horses finishes?
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I think once you decide the intent of the ability, thats when the order of abilities kicks in and says "ok, this ability waits until after WC"
Meaning, you say "imma search for a character, so my weapon goes first.... ok now I'll search for a character and add him to battle... say hi to Nergal!"
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What if it turns out you don't have any OT Crimson EC's in your deck?
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you should remember
However, you may be able to look first, decide what you were going to grab, and then decide what you will do.
I'm just putting 2 and 2 together. I know the following:
Fact 1) Add to Battle when another character is in battle = Banding.
Fact 2) Banding comes after WC enhs in Order of Abilities.
I can provide REG proof if you need it.
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Right, I think Nebby is an exception to the normal order of ops - His ability is a 3 (Search) not a 7 (Band). If you choose to add a character, kudos to you, you simply superceded the Order of Ops momentarily. Its like Barak + Ehud. Normally ehud activates last, but because Barak only triggers when an evil character is in battle Ehud gets to go ahead and pull one in.
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Right, I think Nebby is an exception to the normal order of ops - His ability is a 3 (Search) not a 7 (Band). If you choose to add a character, kudos to you, you simply superceded the Order of Ops momentarily. Its like Barak + Ehud. Normally ehud activates last, but because Barak only triggers when an evil character is in battle Ehud gets to go ahead and pull one in.
I don't think thats quite right. I think Nebby's ability can switch between one or the other. Normally this doesnt matter, but since he is the first WC character with the ability who can add BOTH characters or enhancements into battle, then I think we need to make a distinction about this.
Every instant ability on a character must complete before banding or CTB happens. Barak's has a delay to it, so its not quite instantaneous. While Nebbys ability is instant, it can become either a play next enhancement, or band ability. If Jacob was Warrior Class, this exact same issue would happen.
*EDIT*
forgot to add something.
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Show me the game breaking combo with this, then I'll agree with you. Until then I think we say that Nebby is sweet, and word cards in the future to avoid the problem.
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Im not saying its game breaking. I am however... saying it is inconsistant with the rules. That is one thing I will always argue to fix.
Why are you so against his SA being counted as both, when clearly it can be?
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I'm thinking what happens is that game sees a search ability on a character and says, "Okay, cool, whatever, go ahead and search," and then when you bring out a character it says, "Wait now, hold on, you have to use your Swift Horses before you can put him in battle, because that would be banding," but since Neb's ability has to complete first, the character must go to the player's hand.
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I'm not so against it, I'm more for keeping things simple, we have two rules being contradicted here. The first is Order of Operations, the second is that all abilities must complete before another can be inserted. in my opinion the integrity of the second is more important, because there are no exceptions (off the top of my head) to it. where as we've proven with a few different cards that there are exceptions to the Order of Operations, so I say stick with the already minor inconsistincies. plus its much easier to explain if we allow him to jump the system.
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Hmm, well I think we'll have to wait for some officials to swing through here. We both have laid out pretty good arguments, so we'll see which one they agree with.
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Agreed, I can see your point of view completely, I just like mine better ;) It's pretty much a coin flip.
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I just like mine better ;)
:rollin:
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The interesting thing about this discussion is that I completely didn't realize that I could bring in an EC. I always thought it said OT enhancement :P.
Just think of it, though...
Block with Neb with Swift horses, search for and play Great image (or set fire if facing a sitelock or Desecrate the Temple if facing a Z temp deck), then draw two and then play a nice battle winner ;D
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LOL!
Great Image, S.Horse, play Bel's Banquet, watch them cry.
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LOL!
Great Image, S.Horse, play Bel's Banquet, watch them cry.
Imagine that in Multi ;D
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:o
That + DD = Multiplayer domination. I wonder if a defense heavy deck could actually win in Multi with such powerful ways to kill everyone's heroes.
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Eh, the trick is having defense, but also maintaining enough speed of your own to draw out those nasty combo's. Sudo-Speed or as I like to call it, Mini Charger, is the way of the future.
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Is that like Sudoku? Or Sudowoodo?
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Hey,
It's pretty much a coin flip.
I flipped a coin, it came up heads.
The order of operations predates the introduction and influx of abilities that can either add a character or enhancement to battle. The order of operations should be updated to treat play an enhancement abilities like banding abilities rather than like other abilities.
You get to play both cards (the one with Swift Horses and the one with Nebuchadnezzer) even if the first of the two removes the hero from battle.
Nebuchadnezzer has a search and an add to battle (band/play enhancement) ability. Search abilities are always paired (in this case it is paired with an add to battle ability) and search abilities follow the order for activating abilities of the ability they are paired with. Which means a search ability and the ability it is paired with will always activate together.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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So are you saying that I can or can't add an Evil character to battle before Swift horses? I'm confused by your big words ;)