Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: RTSmaniac on March 10, 2010, 10:59:40 AM
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If i block with an evil character and then discard it due to battle resolution can i sog the shuffler for a block?
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all dominants are considered being played during the battle. If you actually lose the battle, then you have to give the player a LS. If you want to Dominant block, you have to play SoG/NJ and then discard your EC. Discarding your EC moves the game to the battle resolution phase and a LS must be handed over if won before any Doms can be played.
At leas that is the way I have been playing it.
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+1 with crustpope.
This rule applies when the EC dies by numbers. When it is killed by an ability, you still have a chance.
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Your opponant doesn't get the LS until you physically hand it to him. If you decide to play a dominant instead of giving it to him, that's fine. Battle Resolution isn't over until the LS is handed over or unavailable/unaccessable to the hero anymore.
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Your opponant doesn't get the LS until you physically hand it to him. If you decide to play a dominant instead of giving it to him, that's fine. Battle Resolution isn't over until the LS is handed over or unavailable/unaccessable to the hero anymore.
This seems to contradict what everyone else has said, but this is also how I have played it.
If this wasn't the case, then say there was a good "End the battle" card: If I was winning by the numbers after playing that card, would my opponent be unable to Dom block?
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Your opponant doesn't get the LS until you physically hand it to him. If you decide to play a dominant instead of giving it to him, that's fine. Battle Resolution isn't over until the LS is handed over or unavailable/unaccessable to the hero anymore.
That is incorrect.
If you end the battle by passing init back and forth (MD), then battle resolution immediately begins. Dominants cannot be played during this time.
If the battle is ended by an ability, battle resolution does not immediately begin (to allow for Unknown Nation etc). You have "init" to play dominants before handing over a lost soul. This is 90% of battles, but it is still important to note the difference.
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Your opponant doesn't get the LS until you physically hand it to him. If you decide to play a dominant instead of giving it to him, that's fine. Battle Resolution isn't over until the LS is handed over or unavailable/unaccessable to the hero anymore.
This seems to contradict what everyone else has said, but this is also how I have played it.
If this wasn't the case, then say there was a good "End the battle" card: If I was winning by the numbers after playing that card, would my opponent be unable to Dom block?
If they make a good "end the battle" card that could result in a win for the Hero (as opposed to a stalemate, like Battle Neutralized), I might quit the game.
But yes, according to the current rules, that is correct.
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+1 with crustpope.
This rule applies when the EC dies by numbers. When it is killed by an ability, you still have a chance.
So your opponent (EC) would just have to be stupid and let you know that he was dieing BTN before playing the Dominant, or do you get to make him prove that he was dieing BTN to accept his abrupt play of a dominant. ???
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In a pick up or locak toournament, I am sure that people will let you play Doms after you ahve d/ced your EC. But in bigger tournaments it is IMPORTANT that people understand the progression of different phases of the game. Once battle resolution begins, you cannot do anything until the battle is resolved and that includes handing over a LS if one is due.
If you want to Dom block you HAVE to do it before you d/c your EC in an official game.
In a pick up game everyone knows what you were doing so they will let it slide, but in an official tournament that i have paid money to get into, yo ubetter believe I am getting my LS.
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Then...if I (hero) am beating my opponent (EC) by the numbers, I am able to play Grapes in between his playing the dom and discarding his EC? This could be nice to know...
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If you want to Dom block you HAVE to do it before you d/c your EC in an official game.
This is the key part. Once the EC is discarded.....goodbye soul
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Then...if I (hero) am beating my opponent (EC) by the numbers, I am able to play Grapes in between his playing the dom and discarding his EC? This could be nice to know...
Yes. But you have to be quick. Like a ninja.
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You have to play dominant before you discard the character. Discarding the character means you are accepting that the status quo will be how the battle ends.
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Then...if I (hero) am beating my opponent (EC) by the numbers, I am able to play Grapes in between his playing the dom and discarding his EC? This could be nice to know...
if the dom he is playing is discarding his evil character(Grapes, AOTL) you have to let that ability complete before you can play a Dom....this would look like this...
Hero rescue attempts (John)
Blocker presents blocker (sabbath breaker)
John is beating sabbath breaker
Sabbath Breaker uses his ability.....he now has initiative to play a DOM...say he plays Grapes....This means that Sabbath breaker is discarded and John is shuffled....before you can play another dominant. which by that point would be ....well pointless
Say you play Grapes before he does. Sabbath breaker is discarded and John is shuffled....He cannot interrupt by playing Christian Martyr. He would have to wait for your next hero.
So basically the discard ability completes before another dominant can be played.
Here is my question: So many of us have come across this following scenario, therefore perhaps Tim can shed some light onto it for me.
A hero and an EC are in battle. Hero plays AOTL. Then before EC is discarded, EC plays CM…according to the above statements this is not possible as the Hero discarded the EC thereby moving him into battle resolution. If so, when did he have a chance to play CM? Please advise.
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Am I the only one that finds this official rule "silly"? Can someone explain this ruling, and how it would "break the game" if it didn't work this way? I can't see myself, even in a tournament that I have paid money to play in, arguing with my opponent because they happened to discard their EC first and THEN play their dominant. I guess I'm just missing why it is so important. Thanks for helping me understand this better.
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I guess I'm just missing why it is so important.
In the end it is not important. It only comes up rarely, and is just a teaching point for younger players.
I can't see myself, even in a tournament that I have paid money to play in, arguing with my opponent because they happened to discard their EC first and THEN play their dominant.
I feel that if you were in a real tournament where you have the chance of placing, then it could become important. A soul is a soul when you need it.
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A hero and an EC are in battle. Hero plays AOTL. Then before EC is discarded, EC plays CM
according to the above statements this is not possible as the Hero discarded the EC thereby moving him into battle resolution. If so, when did he have a chance to play CM? Please advise.
It is a very common mistake to think that discarding an EC with AotL is ending the battle. An EC may no longer be in battle, but there are many ways (Unknown Nation, The Gates of Hell, etc.) that a new one can be put into battle. Battle resolution doesn't begin because of an ability unless that ability specifically does something to end the battle.
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Evidently something is unclear:
If all blocking ECs are discarded/removed by a special ability, whether it be a dominant, Authority of Christ, or Death of Unrighteous, the battle hasn't moved on to battle resolution yet. Dominants can still be played, artifacts can be used, and in some cases, more special abilities on played cards can be carried out (you can use He is Risen to band in Gabriel and search your opponent's deck even after setting all the blocking EC's aside).
All this thread is talking about is the following:
I attack with Deborah (4/4), and you only have one Lost Soul available for me to rescue. You block with Herodias (6/6). I play Shoes of Peace (3/3) so I am now 7/7. You are dying, and have nothing to play, but you have Burial in hand. You cannot put Herodias in your discard pile, then expect to be able to play Burial before handing me the Lost Soul, since by discarding Herodias, you are saying "I can't do anything, the battle is over." If instead of playig Shoes of Peace, I play Angel of the Lord, then Herodias is discarded, you may not have decided the battle is over. So you can play Burial, even though Herodias already hit the discard pile.
The reason for this ruling was to have a more clear definition on when Battle resolution started. It used to be possible, when someone chose your blocker, for you to let the blocker die BTN, and then you could play Christian Martyr on their hero, presumably getting rid of two of your opponent's characters. That is no longer allowable by this rule.
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That answers my question wonderfully. The distinction is dying by the numbers or being discarded. Very well done Jordan. Thanks!
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No the distinction is when the blocker decides to d/c his or her EC. Actions communicate intent and that allows me to act or react to certain actions.
If the blocker d/c's his or her EC that tells me that they have accepted the Status quo and so that leaves me free to do other things maybe I have other dominants that I want to play like my SoG/NJ. But if they d/c an EC and then play the SoG/NJ on the only available LS for me to Rescue that caused me to act on information that was not correct. In essence it is lying.
The distinction is entirely on what you are saying (by your actions) when you d/c your EC. If I D/C your EC by Dom or SA then you still have time to react (use an Art/play a Dom) because you havent decided that the battle is over. When you do decide that the battle is over (by agreeing to move to battle resolution or by simply handing over a LS) then it is over. But in the case of d/cing an EC it has been interpreted that this action is the same as signifying the transition to battle resolution.
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So when you play Zeal of the Lord on your Phinehas, and my EC is going to discarded (no way to negate it), I as the defender can still play Dominants before I actually discard him, but not after? Why do I not have to give them a lost soul when my EC is discarded and I activate Unknown Nation instead (or can I not do this)?
Thanks for helping me understand this. It sounds like our next playgroup meeting is going to have to address this :(
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Stefferweffer, read Professoralstad's last post again, it makes it very clear. If someone else discards your EC per a SA/Dom/etc, you still have a chance to play a dominant. If you discard your EC per losing by #s, you cannot because in doing so you've already said you cannot do anything else.
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I see both sides, but it seems redundant almost. If they discard me, AoC, cbn Zeal, etc, then I have to discard my EC no matter, that seems like the same thing as, I am losing by the numbers and I can not play anything else, so I have to be discarded. I do agree though that it is your init to play, so you can play a dominant, but I think the first part might need to be reconsidered.
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Its just a classic case- scenerio
A tale as old as time...
...what goes around, comes back around
i thought i told ya- hey, hey, hey!
J. Timberlake
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Stefferweffer, read Professoralstad's last post again, it makes it very clear. If someone else discards your EC per a SA/Dom/etc, you still have a chance to play a dominant. If you discard your EC per losing by #s, you cannot because in doing so you've already said you cannot do anything else.
So Unknown Nation does not work after I discard my EC who is losing by the numbers? I'm not sure how often this would come up, but it just seems odd.
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when you say "Ok, my EC dies by the numbers" then that means you have said to the other player "I pass any initative to play or use any cards, and we now move to battle resolution."
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So Unknown Nation does not work after I discard my EC who is losing by the numbers? I'm not sure how often this would come up, but it just seems odd.
this is how it works