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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Gabe on March 03, 2016, 11:43:48 PM
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My clay Hero was discarded in battle. I have Peter (EC) in my territory. During my discard phase I want to heal the discarded Hero. Will that trigger my opponent's Music Leader?
If an opponent uses a draw or search ability (except on a musician), you may search deck or discard pile for up to 2 good cards that involve music.
Once per round, you may heal another clay Hero. If Peter is captured, search deck for an Acts angel. Good Acts Enhancements play on Peter cannot be negated.
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I would say "No", but INE. I view this the same way as I view converted characters in battle leaving battle because their alignment has changed: The converted characters aren't "Withdrawing".
I.e., the action you take is exactly the same as a specified special ability, but it actually isn't that ability. Music Leader doesn't trigger with a Heal, Herod Agrippa II doesn't trigger when another EC in battle is converted and withdraws to territory, etc.
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Shouldn't search inherently imply that the contents aren't known?
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I would say "No", but INE. I view this the same way as I view converted characters in battle leaving battle because their alignment has changed: The converted characters aren't "Withdrawing".
I.e., the action you take is exactly the same as a specified special ability, but it actually isn't that ability. Music Leader doesn't trigger with a Heal, Herod Agrippa II doesn't trigger when another EC in battle is converted and withdraws to territory, etc.
I agree with this line of thinking.
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Not that I necessarily disagree, but it would trigger on exchange. How is this different?
From entry for "search" on the reg:
Clarifications
● An ability that targets a card in a deck, discard pile, or Artifact Pile that is not in a specific location in that pile,
includes an implied searchof the pile for the target.
The heal doesn't specify the location in the discard pile, so would it not have an implied search? I would consider the convert an irrelevant example, since the character would just be withdrawn by game rule, right?
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Kram is correct.
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I would have to rule that heal is just like exchange, and that heal targeting discard includes an implicit search. Never thought of that, but it has to be that way based on current definitions.
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I would have to rule that heal is just like exchange, and that heal targeting discard includes an implicit search. Never thought of that, but it has to be that way based on current definitions.
FTR, I completely agree and ruled it as a search. I just saw this as a "gray area" that could be interpreted either way so I thought I should bring it up.
It was ruled as a search at the T2 Only. Peter healing under Signet Ring came up more than once.
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Is there an FAQ or something that we can add this to? Can we add this to the "Heal" section of the REG? There is no way that I would have ruled a "Heal" as a "Search." These are the kind of rulings that make being a host/judge frustrating for me.
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Is there an FAQ or something that we can add this to? Can we add this to the "Heal" section of the REG? There is no way that I would have ruled a "Heal" as a "Search." These are the kind of rulings that make being a host/judge frustrating for me.
It is in the section of Search, and we added it to the section for Exchange in the last update (the normal non-Search culprit of implicit search). A clarification wasn't added to Heal due to the simple fact that it never actually dawned on those of us writing everything up that this needed to be accounted for. We're all human, but we are trying our best to put everything we can together in a clear and concise fashion.
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I wasn't actually asking why it wasn't there, I was asking if it could now be added.
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My interpretation on healing abilities from the REG is that the way healing functions when a character is in the discard pile is in this order: search for a character discarded this turn, target a character discarded this turn, and restore a character discarded this turn. But I really don't think if you heal from discard pile that healing then constitutes as a search ability, because searching has distinct parts that are not all fulfilled when you heal a character from discard pile. So Music leader does not get to search for two cards; however, if you restrict the search part of the healing ability like Signet Ring does, then you cannot restore the character. I am not entirely convinced that Healing has to search though, why can't it look? Or can you target a character in discard pile without searching for it?
I.e., the action you take is exactly the same as a specified special ability, but it actually isn't that ability. Music Leader doesn't trigger with a Heal, Herod Agrippa II doesn't trigger when another EC in battle is converted and withdraws to territory, etc.
Agrippa says if a hero withdraws, not if a withdraw ability is used, capture the hero. Something like Conversion or CTR is not a withdraw ability but it causes the hero to withdraw, so Agrippa captures it. CTR abilities like Lies, however, will never gain CBN status from Herod's Praetorium because Praetorium specifies 'withdraw abilities'. I recently talked to 3 Elders about this and they were all about 95% sure that Lies works with Agrippa. I didn't ask about conversion, but if conversion functions as you say, then it will also work if lies does.
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I wasn't actually asking why it wasn't there, I was asking if it could now be added.
Absolutely! I expect that we will add that clarity to the heal entry during the next update.
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I wasn't actually asking why it wasn't there, I was asking if it could now be added.
I get that, I was mostly speaking to your frustration remark. We're definitely trying to make things easier for hosts, and players, to be able to follow the rules; any feedback is appreciated on that front.
Agrippa says if a hero withdraws, not if a withdraw ability is used, capture the hero. Something like Conversion or CTR is not a withdraw ability but it causes the hero to withdraw, so Agrippa captures it. CTR abilities like Lies, however, will never gain CBN status from Herod's Praetorium because Praetorium specifies 'withdraw abilities'. I recently talked to 3 Elders about this and they were all about 95% sure that Lies works with Agrippa. I didn't ask about conversion, but if conversion functions as you say, then it will also work if lies does.
I'll tackle this first, but it's really not the same discussion. Should probably get its own thread if there is still a question after these posts. Lies (and CTR in general) includes a withdraw, per the definition in the REG. That definition is clear that CTO (choose the opponent) is a combination of withdraw and present, so it does indeed mean that a Hero is "withdraws" from battle, and he should trigger. Should he also capture a converted EC? I'd say that by reading the definition in Convert, yes, he should. This is also a really rare case and I'm not worried about that undermining anything in the game, but if someone asked me to rule on that, then I'd have to say the capture happens.
But I really don't think if you heal from discard pile that healing then constitutes as a search ability, because searching has distinct parts that are not all fulfilled when you heal a character from discard pile.
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I am not entirely convinced that Healing has to search though, why can't it look? Or can you target a character in discard pile without searching for it?
It does search, and meets the definition of search:
An ability that targets a card in a deck, discard pile, or Artifact Pile that is not in a specific location in that pile, includes an implied search of the pile for the target.
Heal abilities target the characters that are to be healed.
It's pretty clearly targeting the character to be healed, and if that character is in a discard pile, then it is targeting a card that is not in a specific location in that pile (this clause refers to cards that say "discard top card of deck" or "reveal bottom card of deck," neither are searches because they are in a specific location; this character is not).
Healing a character in discard pile includes a search of discard pile. It is stopped by Signet Ring and triggers Music Leader in the same way that AutO trying to exchange to discard pile would.
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I get that, I was mostly speaking to your frustration remark. We're definitely trying to make things easier for hosts, and players, to be able to follow the rules; any feedback is appreciated on that front.
My frustration is mostly with myself, but also at how the game has progressed to nitpicking semantics. Honestly, I probably would not have even checked the REG. I would have just said, "No, of course a Heal ability is not a Search ability."
I don't necessarily disagree with the ruling, since the REG quote seems clear.
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I actually disagree with the ruling. Heal includes an implicit search, just like exchange, but is not a "search ability" (neither is exchange). Music Leader specifies "draw or search ability" whereas Signet Ring simply restricts from "searching." A heal searches but is not a search ability so I would think that Signet Ring would restrict it but it would not trigger Music Leader.
:2cents:
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Sorry to double post, but could this be reviewed per my post above this one? I really think the previously stated ruling for this scenario is incorrect.
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I think I agree with Browa here. If Music Leader said "If an opponent searches deck or discard" then it for sure triggers off a heal from discard, but it specifies "search ability." A card that negated search abilities would not negate a healing card that was trying to heal someone in the discard pile.
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i think this goes back to the peter/paul healing impossibility.. if paul does hit the discard pile, in which case a search would be required to bring him back to life to heal him, he would not be able to be healed by peter as a clay hero since he has reverted back to saul upon hitting the discard pile. keep in mind, most (before clay peter existed) healing occurs after or before the battle phase, in prep or to the discard phase.
this isn't the only place where there are blurred lines, for example, assyrian survivor or silly women playing death of unrighteous. they are discarded, or removed from play, and captured after the battle (the next phase) to opponents land of bondage. technically they left play, but they are still captured. in my opinion, capturing assyrian survivor to your opponents land of bondage after battle involves, in no way, a search ability. for example, assyrian survivor underdecked would not be able to capture through a nazareth after battle.. this would be like saying hypocrisy targets your hand, because technically returning targeted heroes requires the target of hand to return them to a place where the target is someone's hand. after activating, assyrian survivor cannot theoretically be targeted by a heal card in the discard pile to be healed because after the battle while moving to the discard phase it would be captured to your opponent's land of bondage.
in my opinion, ruling a heal as a search ability is flawed since it would also make many other abilities unusable, while the ability's completion requires technically such action beyond restriction or protection and while carrying through two phases which also makes me wonder why abilities like golden cherubim and priest of zeus don't activate through to the next phase when an end the battle is played, since they are cbi/cbn due to after battle not actually being a part of battle resolution
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I actually disagree with the ruling. Heal includes an implicit search, just like exchange, but is not a "search ability" (neither is exchange). Music Leader specifies "draw or search ability" whereas Signet Ring simply restricts from "searching." A heal searches but is not a search ability so I would think that Signet Ring would restrict it but it would not trigger Music Leader.
You're correct that a heal does not trigger Music Leader because healing is not a search ability.
The point of my question was not specifically related to Music Leader, but to establish that healing a character in the discard pile requires an implied search.
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That's fair and I agree with that. My initial post was replying to this quote (emphasis mine):
Healing a character in discard pile includes a search of discard pile. It is stopped by Signet Ring and triggers Music Leader in the same way that AutO trying to exchange to discard pile would.
I had initially thought you had agreed with Redoubter (and thus that the ruling officially was that a heal would trigger Music Leader since 2 Elders in agreement = official ruling) so I apologize that I mis-associated you with that line of thinking.
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So does hsr now also restrict healing?
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Per the current line of thinking, it seems so. Signet Ring restricts searching, which Heal (and Exchange and "remove X cards from the discard pile from the game" and others) inherently includes.
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so assyrian survivor cannot capture itself to opponents land of bondage if it was shuffled or under decked through Nazareth or discarded by death of unrighteous through hsr? So basically Peter's heal and love are now shut down by hsr? Was it played this way in the past or is this a new ruling now?
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Not really a fan of this ruling, I get it but I'm kinda with vega in not liking the results with HSR.
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kind of want to point out that in the reg heal does not say there is an implied search as in the case of exchange.
i don't feel like, according to the current reg (and most likely the objective of creating the heal cards) hsr would restrict healing(be it peter, love, or back in the day brass serpent -i would really like to know if anyone has ever been restricted in the past from healing with brass serpent through hsr), and i don't feel like music leader would trigger from a heal since in the reg it does not say there is an implied search. i don't think that was the original intention with heal, for it to be a search if a character was discarded.
i'm pretty sure that in the case of assyrian survivor, while they technically hit the deck, they would still be captured.. through naz or hsr, correct?
"Implied Search Clarification:
An ability that targets a card in a deck, discard pile, or Artifact Pile that is not in a specific location in that pile,
includes an implied search of the pile for the target."
wouldn't the heal be targeting the top or almost the top card(s) of the dc pile?
in the event of aocp or wrath of satan i could see where there may be more cards in the dc pile but they are still healable targets like with healings in malta.. only the cards in the dc pile which are healable at that time could be targeted, which are going to be on top and face up. i think look is a better clarification here than search.
i don't mean to sound argumentative because i do think it is healthy for this kind of clarification- more so to the general population who isn't on the boards. what is really intuitive here? what really works more so with the objectives of/theme of creating heal cards rather than the constraints we are facing due to different possible interpretations of wording? i guess i am trying to imagine why hsr would restrict peter from healing in real life lol
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The healable cards aren't necessarily on the top. A character could be dced, then enhancements played, battle ends, enhancements go to dc pile then character is healed. At that point, while you might know where the character is, the heal doesn't target it as the "nth card from the top of the dc pile", it targets it as somewhere in the dc pile. So then you would have to look through the dc pile to find it, thereby creating the search.
It may not be a totally in line with how heal is meant to be played, but at least it's consistent. Then the REG doesn't have to say "An ability that targets a card in a deck...includes an implied search of the pile for the target, as long as it isn't a heal ability". That may be more in line with healing and perhaps a little more intuitive (though I think it makes total sense as is; if you are looking through a pile, you are searching), it makes it simpler. More complexity isn't what Redemption needs.
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personally, i like the idea of heal as a look if it is going to dc is all i'm saying if there is an amendment to the reg needed
it could even be you may look at the cards discarded in the battle phase or something
so has hsr ever restricted brass serpent in the past?
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Healing was a seldom used ability until Peter was introduced. Even the first year after EC was released clay was not heavily played. It wasn't until PC that multiple clay offenses became viable. Now Peter sees much more play, meaning that healing sees much more play.
Similarly, HSR has not always been a restrict ability (although it has for a few years now). It also wasn't heavily played in the past because draw was the acceleration of choice. As more draw counters have been printed and better search abilities have been introduced players start using more search. As a result we see an increase in HSR use.
Now the two have met and we come to the realization that a search of the discard pile is required to target a Hero that has been sent there. The REG does currently state that healing requires a target (and that target must be healable). While it isn't explicitly stated in the REG that healing a character in the discard pile requires a search, it will be added to bring clarity.
In order to target a card in the discard pile you must search the discard pile. Search is what happens when you look through an entire location (deck or discard pile) and perform an action to a card in that location. Look is used when a subset of a location is targeted (such as the top X cards).
I'm not a fan of how powerful HSR has become and how it stops people from using their cards. But we must have top down consistent rules across the board. We cannot make a squishy ruling about healing in the discard pile based on how we want cards to work.
A few months from now there will be more and better ways to deal with cards like HSR. Until then, Peter is still a very strong card.
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word, thanks for the clarification!
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My clay Hero was discarded in battle. I have Peter (EC) in my territory. During my discard phase I want to heal the discarded Hero. Will that trigger my opponent's Music Leader?
If the only hero in battle is being discarded, can Peter, brass serpent,...etc ever heal during the battle phase? I ask because the following quote from the Redemption wiki (I assume there is language close to this in the REG?) seems to imply that there is such a thing as healing a character that is pending discard. If so, then HSR would not stop Peter's healing in the battle phase, because the hero is being targeted outside of the discard pile unless, of course, the hero is immediately discarded after the discard ability completes. As opposed to the lone hero dying, battle phase ending, and Peter trying in vain to heal through HSR in the discard phase. Is pending discard a thing?
Default Conditions
"
A character is healable if it is about to be discarded, was discarded earlier in the same turn, is poisoned, or is diseased. If no more specific requirement is specified targets must be healable."
http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Heal
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Default Conditions
"
A character is healable if it is about to be discarded, was discarded earlier in the same turn, is poisoned, or is diseased. If no more specific requirement is specified targets must be healable."
http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Heal
I was actually about to bring this up. Healing doesn't have to have a search with this in mind. I feel like healing should be played this way as a whole. To me I guess it's like this. Before it reaches the discard pile it should be healable and it is still in play. Once it reaches the discard pile I feel that healing the dead doesn't seem right and something that revives a dead character should be needed and the revive effect would have a search. I also feel like heal should always have special initiative even if a discard is cbn. I feel there should always be that transition from play to discard that a character is healable. But as things currently are I would say that hsr would only stop a heal if it targeted a character that is definitively in the discard pile. I think that search might be getting too broad as is. Hsr might not apply to these but do you search for a hero of matching brigade to play an enhancement, wc, what about banding do you search for a character in hand or territory, what about things like siege works do you search for Isaiah or an assyrian in play to see if it works? I just feel like there are some thing that require a "search" that aren't searching. Just my 2 cents.
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i agree with these two guys, really glad they found the 'is about to be discarded'
in this way heal originally seems to have an instead
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The Wiki is unofficial and should not be quoted as if it was the REG. The quoted portion does not exist in the REG at all. Instead the REG says:
The phrase “being discarded”, “about to be discarded” or “recently discarded” (recently meaning previously in the same turn) all refer to a character that has been discarded by a special ability or game rule.
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The Wiki is unofficial and should not be quoted as if it was the REG. The quoted portion does not exist in the REG at all. Instead the REG says:
The phrase “being discarded”, “about to be discarded” or “recently discarded” (recently meaning previously in the same turn) all refer to a character that has been discarded by a special ability or game rule.
that's interesting that the reg and wiki are different but I guess I disagree with the reg on that and feel it should be revisited. It's very counterintuitive to me and causes confusion. Not only that but it would solve the hsr issue at least for healing. Still though like I mentioned what truly constitutes a "search" vice viewing. The Wiki states "A search ability allows a player to view a deck, discard pile, or Artifact Pile to perform an action with a specific card or set of cards." So is that saying anything that needs to view those locations is a search otherwise it's not searching? Like uzzah? Is that a search? By this also wouldn't music leader trigger off heal then as currently ruled? What about Kidron Valley do you have to search for the card cause you have to view the artifact pile? I'm mostly just curious and confused to the extent of what searching is vice viewing and what abilities then have searches implied.
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I think the reg is allowing one to make the assumption that as soon as a discard ability is played, a character is discarded, which is not what happens. In the event you have a Herod's temple, you would effectively be having to search your discard pile to instead the discard, am I right? I think this is where heal originally had an instead which allowed the characters being healed to never need to be searched for since they were healed instead of going to dc.
I've almost always seen healing with Peter as an instead to ever being discarded
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I actually have another question. It revolves around divination (TP). It's a look ability but is it a search. The last post I saw on the card when I looked it up seemed to imply that it wasn't, however the wiki lists it as a search effect. So is divination a search effect? If so is it because look has an implied search or is it just the way divination works? If look doesn't have an implied search then can this be precedent for something like heal as to limit the non-intended interaction for cards like hsr effecting searching? Just something I thought about that might be applicable.
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Again, the wiki is not an official source, it's more for assistance and searching for cards (since the REG doesn't list cards or their images individually). The Wiki is primarily kept up by non-Elder volunteers from the community who may list something for clarity when the card doesn't actually meet that. It's a great resource but shouldn't be taken as law or officially indicative of anything.
Divination is a look ability which is not a search ability nor does it contain a search.
As far as "in that case, <X> should trigger Music Leader", Music Leader specifies "draw or search ability" whereas HSR restricts from "searching." As mentioned before, some abilities search but are separate special abilities and are not "search abilities." Heal, Exchange, etc. search certain locations but are not search abilities so they would not trigger Music Leader.
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I thought that was the case with divination but there wasn't a reg entry stating it was a search so I was curious as to why the Wiki did. As for the search entry and music leader.here is the reg entry.
General Description
A search ability allows a player to view a deck, discard pile, or Artifact Pile to perform an action with a specific card or
set of cards.
How to Play
A search ability targets the deck, discard pile, or Artifact pile viewed by the player who used the ability, as well as the
card(s) that the player performs the action with.
A searcGeneral Description
A searchability allows a player to view a deck, discard pile, or Artifact Pile to perform an action with a specific card or
set of cards.
How to Play
A searchability targets the deck, discard pile, or Artifact pile viewed by the player who used the ability, as well as the
card(s) that the player performs the action with.
A searchability targets the set of cards that are to be searched.
A searchability is instantaneous.
Default Conditions
● When a deck is searched, shuffle the deck after the search.
● If a searchability states what to search “for” but does not say what to do with that card, then the card should be
taken into the player’s hand.
Special Conditions
● If a searchability targets a specific type of card, revealthe targeted card before performing any other action with
that card.
● Regardless of whether a search is mandatory or optional, a player has the choice to fail any search they control,
and is not required to select a valid target, even if one exists. However, if a search of deck is mandatory, or an
optional search of deck is performed, the deck must still be shuffled.search ability targets the set of cards that are to be searched.
A search ability is instantaneous.
Default Conditions
● When a deck is searched, shuffle the deck after the search.
● If a searchability states what to search “for” but does not say what to do with that card, then the card should be
taken into the player’s hand.
Special Conditions
● If a searchability targets a specific type of card, revealthe targeted card before performing any other action with
that card.
● Regardless of whether a search is mandatory or optional, a player has the choice to fail any search they control,
and is not required to select a valid target, even if one exists. However, if a search of deck is mandatory, or an
optional search of deck is performed, the deck must still be shuffled.
The reason i brought up the music leader is due to the initial wording of this anything that "allows a player to view a deck, discard pile, or Artifact Pile to perform an action with a specific card or
set of cards." Would be a search ability not just a search effect because the reg defines the action not as a search effect but as a search ability. That's all I was saying. Now I'm not saying that hsr triggers it and I'm also not stating that a search ability that is stopped by hsr also triggers it. I was just trying to say that according to how heal is currently being viewed if it isn't being stopped by hsr (which I don't think it should in the first place) then music leader would trigger. Am I correct here or am I missing something?
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I don't know if this is 100% factually correct with the rules, so take it with a grain of salt, but this is how I interpret situations like this:
There are various actions you can take in Redemption. Some of them are just game actions, some are both game actions and special abilities. Effectively, any card that tells you to take a game action outside of when you could normally take that action is turning that game action into a special ability. We see this with Draw. Iron Pan doesn't negate your ability to draw 3 at the beginning of the turn, yet Foreign Wives counts those 3 when determining if she's protected. Iron Pan refers to the draw ability, FW refers to cards drawn by anything (whether game action or special ability).
I then carry that over to Search. There are search abilities (that have the keyword "search" in the card text) and then there are search game actions. Certain locations have cards in an unknown order, like deck and discard, and so abilities that target a specific card or cards in those locations require a search game action. That doesn't inherently make them search abilities. They are separate special abilities that happen to include a search action based on the locations they affect.
Other examples: A draw ability that draws a Lost Soul is not considered a "play" ability even though that Lost Soul is played when drawn. Discarding cards from your hand in your Discard Phase is not a discard ability even though the same action occurs in both situations.
Hopefully this helps.
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Thanks for the clarification. I know I've mostly been posing alot of questions. There's just alot that seems to be gray area that unless you know the ruling is unclear. The one thing that I'm really curious to know is does heal truly have an inherent search and if so is it only conditional to the discard pile? The reg currently doesn't state this that I'm aware of. Also what is the definitional difference between a look and a search?
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yeah could heal possibly be an instead?
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yeah could heal possibly be an instead?
That's what I was thinking.
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So with the ruling we currently have, HSR would also stop the Micheal with Angel sword using something like Striking Herod on Uzzah because he is already in the discard pile. Or am I way off?
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for example the new covenant can be under decked 'at any time' to heal, so is this an instead because that's how i've always seen it played if the nt hero was matyred they play new covenant and heal them same thing if they got wrathed
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So with the ruling we currently have, HSR would also stop the Micheal with Angel sword using something like Striking Herod on Uzzah because he is already in the discard pile. Or am I way off?
Yes, but just to be clear its not a search ability that could be triggered by something like Music Leader because ITB does not search every time you activate the ability. An ability is classified as a search ability when it does what Striking Herod is "doing"* to Uzzah every single time you activate it.
*Striking Herod interrupts the battle and discards uzzah which means it targets uzzah, negates him,and discards him. To perform this ability you must target the discard pile, look through the discard pile and target uzzah, and then discard him. Consequently, Striking Herod fits the function of a search ability: Targets an artifact pile, discard pile, or deck, targets the card, and performs an action. Therefore, Striking Herod is searching.
EDIT: I am thinking no now since ITB targets abilities and not card itself. To constitute a search you have to target the card while it is in deck discard or artifact pile.... So ITB targets the ability and negates it. Then you are targeting uzzah for discard but by then he is back in play. Conclusion: HSR does not restrict SH in this situation.
for example the new covenant can be under decked 'at any time' to heal, so is this an instead because that's how i've always seen it played if the nt hero was matyred they play new covenant and heal them same thing if they got wrathed
Technically no, because of how the rules for heal are written in the REG. A New Covenant targets discard pile, targets the heroes, and performs the action of restoration on the heroes. ANC cannot do this with HSR up but that is what it does normally.
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I understand what you are trying to imply about interrupt the battle but, maybe I'm wrong, but this isn't like SI where there is a pending ability. Uzzah triggers then angel's sword triggers (with Uzzah clearly in the discard pile then Striking Herod tries to trigger afterword. If this chain of events is correct I would argue that you can't pull Uzzah out of the discard through HSR. But please correct me if I'm wrong!
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I understand what you are trying to imply about interrupt the battle but, maybe I'm wrong, but this isn't like SI where there is a pending ability. Uzzah triggers then angel's sword triggers (with Uzzah clearly in the discard pile then Striking Herod tries to trigger afterword. If this chain of events is correct I would argue that you can't pull Uzzah out of the discard through HSR. But please correct me if I'm wrong!
I would wait for an Elders opinion, however, this is how I see it.
ITB targets the ability on the last card activated, not the card itself. This does not fit the definition of search where you have to target the card in the deck, artifact pile, or discard pile to perform an action on, because that's what search does: target location, then target card, then perform action on target card. Striking herod's ITB does not target uzzah so it cannot and does not fullfill all of the parts of a search, a prerequisite to determine if a card performs a search or not.
I ra mike they block with philly garrrison. Garrison is immune and I cannot target him, yet I can play Striking Herod to interrupt the ability to discard him because ITB targets the last ability on the last card played not the last card itself.
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Work has been insane for me for awhile, but I'll try to catch up on this thread...
so assyrian survivor cannot capture itself to opponents land of bondage if it was shuffled or under decked through Nazareth or discarded by death of unrighteous through hsr? So basically Peter's heal and love are now shut down by hsr? Was it played this way in the past or is this a new ruling now?
To the first part, there is no search actually being performed there. Survivor has an "instead" ability on it, so it actually goes to opponent's LoB "instead" of wherever it goes when it is being defeated. Absolutely nothing to do with the situation here, and no searches.
To the second part, I'm not aware of Heal to discard coming up before, but it is the correct ruling based on the current rules, as Gabe has mentioned.
that's interesting that the reg and wiki are different but I guess I disagree with the reg on that and feel it should be revisited. It's very counterintuitive to me and causes confusion.
That part of the REG was intentionally changed in 3.0.0. We were very intentional to remove any sort of implication that Heal can somehow pause the game, and I doubt that we would add confusion back into the game by allowing that to mean anything different again.
I think the reg is allowing one to make the assumption that as soon as a discard ability is played, a character is discarded, which is not what happens. In the event you have a Herod's temple, you would effectively be having to search your discard pile to instead the discard, am I right? I think this is where heal originally had an instead which allowed the characters being healed to never need to be searched for since they were healed instead of going to dc.
I've almost always seen healing with Peter as an instead to ever being discarded
Well, it is not an instead, so that would not be a correct series of events. When a discard ability is resolved, the character is discarded. Herod's Temple is an instead, and it happens instead of the discard, which never happens due to the way instead works. These are not comparable situations, just like Survivor is not comparable.
I understand what you are trying to imply about interrupt the battle but, maybe I'm wrong, but this isn't like SI where there is a pending ability. Uzzah triggers then angel's sword triggers (with Uzzah clearly in the discard pile then Striking Herod tries to trigger afterword. If this chain of events is correct I would argue that you can't pull Uzzah out of the discard through HSR. But please correct me if I'm wrong!
Uzzah completes, then AS completes, then SH triggers, yes. But there is no search. ItB interrupts the last card played, if played by an opponent. This interrupts Uzzah, which undoes his discard; it never happened, at that moment, so he's in play for the discard to hit him. At no point is there a search, implied or otherwise, because nothing is targeting a card in the discard pile.
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That part of the REG was intentionally changed in 3.0.0. We were very intentional to remove any sort of implication that Heal can somehow pause the game, and I doubt that we would add confusion back into the game by allowing that to mean anything different again.
Yes, it brings healing back down to earth but if healing pauses the games its not necessarily more confusing. If healing was confusing that way then instead is confusing the way it currently functions. Instead might be but not from my personal experience. So, adding something back in to help healing function in a more realistic way is not necessarily adding confusion back into the game, it could actually be eliminating some confusion because of how healing was often played, and how people think of "healing". As it stands now, I guess, healing is essentially resurrection. That's confusing Ya know? As Christians we might say, "Jesus HEALED lepers or blind men", and "he raised Lazarus from the dead", as opposed to saying, "Jesus healed the death out of Lazarus". I used to talk like that in Sunday school lol but that's another story ;) Anyway, when Peter is healing people who have been discarded in prep or battle phase, you know there's something odd (wrong?) with the definition of heal lol. Point being: if heal does not have a very intuitive definition there will be confusion with some players.
Healing was played a lot back in the day. Brass serpent, when it came out, was in practically every competitive deck. The new covenant was popular....,etc It was a seldom used ability relative to others though like Gabe said. I don't know what the rules for healing were back then but it didn't really matter, people either placed their character in the discard pile and brought them back or kept him out as if to place him in a "pending discard" state and then played their healing enhancement. All of the people I have played, played it functionally that way; however, this could have been a short hand play I don't know. So you have to go by what the REG says now, I agree, but perhaps something was lost in the simplification :dunno:
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First, I'm not sure why you're trying to bring anything into an argument here about what Heal should do except game mechanics. Second, you give examples of things that happened and then say that having heal undo them doesn't make sense. I'm really not following your logic, but it really isn't applicable here in the first place.
Nothing was 'lost' when we simplified things, we gained clarity. What does "about to be discarded" actually mean? How does that jive with the new SI rules, or how nothing can be played normally when things are resolving, etc.? By clarifying what that means on old cards (we have done that with plenty of abilities) we have a set rule that everyone can follow. You mention how you don't know how everyone treated heal previously, and that's actually part of the problem...there was interpretation. We've worked hard to try and make everything standard no matter where you play.
Heal is now more intuitive for how Redemption mechanics work generally. In any case, we have the rulings for all of the questions asked thus far in this thread (at least the ones I saw).
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i agree. i expect that the 'is about to be discarded' part is somewhere in a previous version of the reg.
this is why i believe heal has been played as an instead in the past. that is where i feel the reg may be assuming that heal cannot be an instead, when that's exactly how it has been played in many cases ie wrath of satan, okay- brass serpent instead.. never putting any heroes into the dc pile
with the way the reg is currently worded it seems you really could choose either way of clarifying heal. you could a) make it an instead where characters can be healed instead of going to dc pile in which case the search and hsr stuff is all cleared up or b) you can make heal an exception of an ability where regardless of hitting the dc pile characters are given the chance to revert and recapture placed cards. - this is where i am questioning which is more squishy in terms of game ruling and which is more intuitive. is it more intuitive to have a rule where cards which hit deck, discard, or hand are reset- with the exception of healing? or is it more intuitive to have heal as an instead, where they never wind up going there and thereby creating the need for such an exception to game rule?
by the way, this is from the 10th anniversary rule book under healing enhancements:
Example: You have Silas, a blue brigade Hero, in the Field
of Battle and Isaiah, a green brigade Hero, in your territory.
Silas has been defeated and is on his way to the discard
pile. You activate the green brigade enhancement Ointment
on Isaiah. Ointment reads, “Heal any Hero in play.” Then
you direct the healing effect at Silas. This heals Silas and
returns him to your territory.
“Heal” special
abilities save a character from being discarded
You may direct the effect of the healing
32
enhancement at any character in play that is currently poisoned,
diseased, or being discarded
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with the way the reg is currently worded it seems you really could choose either way of clarifying heal. you could a) make it an instead where characters can be healed instead of going to dc pile in which case the search and hsr stuff is all cleared up or b) you can make heal an exception of an ability where regardless of hitting the dc pile characters are given the chance to revert and recapture placed cards. - this is where i am questioning which is more squishy in terms of game ruling and which is more intuitive. is it more intuitive to have a rule where cards which hit deck, discard, or hand are reset- with the exception of healing? or is it more intuitive to have heal as an instead, where they never wind up going there and thereby creating the need for such an exception to game rule?
or c) we can leave it as is and have it continue to make sense and work, if not as strongly as some would like. Heal is not now an instead nor has it ever been an instead. might it have been played similarly to an instead? sure, doesn't mean that it was played correctly though. The rules work. A character has to be an acceptable target of heal to be healed. If that means that the hero has to hit discard pile first and your Paul then reverts to Saul or Peter can't reach him through HSR that stinks, but it isn't a reason to change a rule that makes sense and simplifies the process.
Rules rarely get made because that's how we'd like it to be played. If that was the system used, then there would be a whole lot of "NAME automatically wins the match if he declares it so" rules...
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with the way the reg is currently worded it seems you really could choose either way of clarifying heal. you could a) make it an instead where characters can be healed instead of going to dc pile in which case the search and hsr stuff is all cleared up or b) you can make heal an exception of an ability where regardless of hitting the dc pile characters are given the chance to revert and recapture placed cards. - this is where i am questioning which is more squishy in terms of game ruling and which is more intuitive. is it more intuitive to have a rule where cards which hit deck, discard, or hand are reset- with the exception of healing? or is it more intuitive to have heal as an instead, where they never wind up going there and thereby creating the need for such an exception to game rule?
or c) we can leave it as is and have it continue to make sense and work, if not as strongly as some would like. Heal is not now an instead nor has it ever been an instead. might it have been played similarly to an instead? sure, doesn't mean that it was played correctly though. The rules work. A character has to be an acceptable target of heal to be healed. If that means that the hero has to hit discard pile first and your Paul then reverts to Saul or Peter can't reach him through HSR that stinks, but it isn't a reason to change a rule that makes sense and simplifies the process.
Rules rarely get made because that's how we'd like it to be played. If that was the system used, then there would be a whole lot of "NAME automatically wins the match if he declares it so" rules...
Yeah except for the fact that with this current ruling of Paul going to dc, becoming Saul again by game rule, he CAN be targeted by Peter as a HERO, or in the next phase by love and even brass serpent, healed, then reverted back to Paul the hero with previously placed but discarded enhancements.. I think this is the biggest problem here because it's defying game rule to make heal playable with current reg wording which is already admitted to change.
since it's not an instead as it was clearly originally intended to be by looking at the 10th anniversary rule book and most likely prior regs, wiki, other players- which makes it obvious why and how characters could retain placed cards and gained abilities because originally by game rule they wouldn't hit the dc pile to be reset..
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If we want to make heal something that can be played "before discard" like the rule book suggested, maybe this is an easy way to fix it. When your character is granted special initiative then you can play a card that interrupts/negates said card(s) OR heal any heal able characters.
You are given SI in the case of a CBN battle winner (i.e. Michael w/ Striking Herod, Black Simon the Magician or Sisera w/ Wrath of Satan against correct opponent), but obviously you can't interrupt/negate those but since you have SI you can heal them.
I'm not suggesting we make the ruling change, just trying to give a good way to implement it the way some people are seeing/wanting it to be played, and I feel this way there isn't a whole lot of added confusion/change.
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Heal is not intended to be an instead, which never actually existed at the time it was introduced. There would have been no mechanism for playing things while something else were resolving. People playing things wrong isn't new; rules being open to interpretation isn't new; people playing things differently in different regions has been an issue plenty. What we did with the latest REG, and are trying to do going forward, is make things clear and concise. Heal did not work as previously written. It works now.
On the question of SI and Heal, we could not make that change with how the game mechanics work right now. Currently, SI pauses the game prior to completion of the ability, so there's no one healable at that time.
Heal is already a funky-enough mechanic (and it was more funky before), and adding more weird things it can do that go against normal stuff in the game would probably not be good.
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Redoubter, I know you have put a ton of work in to the REG, and before I go on I want to say thank you for all you have done to clarify these intensely complex rulings.
with the current wording of the reg an enhancement can be played on a character in the dc pile. it just doesn't make sense on top of the game rule to reset..
again - this is where i am questioning which is more squishy in terms of game ruling and which is more intuitive. is it more intuitive to have a rule where cards which hit deck, discard, or hand are reset- with the exception of healing? or is it more intuitive to have heal as an instead, where they never wind up going there and thereby creating the need for such an exception to game rule?
again, from the 10th anniversary rule book under healing enhancements:
Example: You have Silas, a blue brigade Hero, in the Field
of Battle and Isaiah, a green brigade Hero, in your territory.
Silas has been defeated and is on his way to the discard
pile. You activate the green brigade enhancement Ointment
on Isaiah. Ointment reads, “Heal any Hero in play.” Then
you direct the healing effect at Silas. This heals Silas and
returns him to your territory.
i offer my solution.. we are going to have to have some given grace here in terms of understanding the original intention behind healing cards and the way they were meant to work to begin with(and the way they have been played for years), to not break the other rules. i understand you may see it as impossible to be an instead with the current wording of instead, but if a hero is poisoned or paralyzed, then healed- isn't that an instead?
we know that healed characters go back to territory when healed. i don't feel special initiative is the solution here regarding the original wording of healing clarification. the only problem is there isn't a place for them to go yet between where they were when the discard ability was played, depending on where they were discarded from, and the discard pile. this is the middle ground that needs grace to be solved. there has to be a place where throughout the turn characters can be to be targeted for healing, without being playable.
i'm thinking paralysis may be the real solution here. paralysis of pending to be discarded characters until the current turns discard phase, in which they are discarded, if not healed. so a paralyzed character would go somewhere (this is the place which is undefined, but currently defined as dc pile) when the dc ability is played, paralyzed, where after throughout certain phases, prep or dc, they may be healed to prevent them from going to the dc pile, but if they aren't then they go there- in which case they must be searched for to ever return.
i think this was the original intention behind healing and this is a great solution that solves healing's game breaking current wording.
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First, quoting old rules that were the origin of the problem of multiple different rulings is not going to really affect anything here; we have consistent rules now, and the old rules no longer apply.
i understand you may see it as impossible to be an instead with the current wording of instead, but if a hero is poisoned or paralyzed, then healed- isn't that an instead?
No? How is that an instead? The character was still poisoned or paralyzed initially, and now the character is no longer poisoned or paralyzed. Instead makes it so that something 'never actually happened' and something else happened in its place; that is absolutely not what is happening when poison or paralyze is healed.
the only problem is there isn't a place for them to go yet between where they were when the discard ability was played, depending on where they were discarded from, and the discard pile. this is the middle ground that needs grace to be solved. there has to be a place where throughout the turn characters can be to be targeted for healing, without being playable.
No there does not, because they are targetable in discard pile. Characters still go to discard pile, there is no 'limbo' or something like that, and it's not needed. It would unnecessarily complicate the game and has no reason to exist. It would also add unintended consequences (if they are not in discard yet, then what about the abilities that target discard pile that are played after they are discarded?), and just would not work.
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yeah, there was a space where healing could happen to prevent the rule of cards reset when they hit dc/deck/hand from happening when they hit the dc pile.. this is why you even said yourself healing is weird. it HAS become an exception to game rule because of wording, outside of original intention.
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let me ask you this, is naaman's heal an instead?
O.T. Enhancements used by Naaman cannot be negated. The first time Namaan is about to be discarded, heal him and convert him to a red brigade Hero.
this seems to be more in line with the 10th anniversary rules and closer to the original intent of healing abilities
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yeah, there was a space where healing could happen to prevent the rule of cards reset when they hit dc/deck/hand from happening when they hit the dc pile.. this is why you even said yourself healing is weird. it HAS become an exception to game rule because of wording, outside of original intention.
I'm sorry, but there was never really that space. The rules for heal never actually jived with the rest of the rules of the game. Now they do, and the only thing that seems to be upsetting to some is that you cannot heal to discard when there is a HSR up. That stinks and all, but it is correct per the rules. Adding limbo, and adding weird interactions to heal, would not help the game. It would make it so you could heal with HSR up, but at the expense of a whole host of other consequences alluded to before. If there were anything to happen to change heal, that would not be it. We would have to change how heal targets, not do something with an in-between state for cards.
let me ask you this, is naaman's heal an instead?
Absolutely not (http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Healing_of_Naaman_(FF)). Nothing in that ability indicates an instead. It is just a heal that targets a healable EC.
EDIT: Apparently you edited your post since I quoted it. Namaan (http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Naaman_(FF)) himself is an instead. His heal removes all conditions he has as well, which is what the story is about. It tells you what to do instead of discarding him. Not sure why that's relevant here, it has nothing to do with heal as a whole.
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EDIT: Apparently you edited your post since I quoted it. Namaan himself is an instead. His heal removes all conditions he has as well, which is what the story is about. It tells you what to do instead of discarding him. Not sure why that's relevant here, it has nothing to do with heal as a whole.
SO 'about to be discarded' is an instead. there we have it. original 10th anniversary wording for healing is it is an instead.. thank you.
honestly it has very little to do with hsr and way more to do with the fact that i have been told countless times that cards reset when they hit deck/dc/hand and now healing is some sort of exception.
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honestly it has very little to do with hsr and way more to do with the fact that i have been told countless times that cards reset when they hit deck/dc/hand and now healing is some sort of exception.
that seems inconsistent. and i cannot see how 'about to be discarded' is not an instead.
you are telling me that there is no difference between the words 'about to be discarded' and 'in the discard pile'
You need to review the current rules, and not be looking to the past. I've already addressed how heal currently works in this thread, here is instead:
An ability cannot be affected by instead retroactively; instead must trigger during the activation.
Instead has to already be active in order to work, tied to an ongoing trigger. Namaan activates when placed in battle. If he is discarded, "instead" he is targeted by a heal and then converted to a hero. The discard never actually takes place.
You cannot activate an ability or play a card between the discard and the character hitting discard pile. Namaan works because his instead is already in place, and it is an instead. Heal cannot be done in-between, unless it were also tied to an instead on a card.
Not the same situations, sorry, it doesn't work that way.
EDIT: Please stop just modifying your posts and changing the actual content...the quote above was your original submission, and no, I did not say that, please read the above.
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so what about Peter? he is ongoing
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so what about Peter? he is ongoing
Which does not have an instead modifying the ability. When you can use activated abilities, you can activate Peter. He does not work in-between things completing, as noted in the Activated Abilities section of the REG.
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i'm just saying man.. it seems like the wording has become overly binding to the original wording of healing abilities and their intent.
still a broken heal rule making cards go to the dc pile, then revert all of this stuff because of one heal ability. that's what i'm saying is wrong.
there needs to be a solution that is more in line with the past.. the game is 20 years old. these cards/reg are less than 2
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i'm just saying man.. it seems like the wording has become overly binding to the original wording of healing abilities and their intent.
still a broken heal rule making cards go to the dc pile, then revert all of this stuff because of one heal ability. that's what i'm saying is wrong.
there needs to be a solution that is more in line with the past.. the game is 20 years old. these cards/reg are less than 2
Vega, I've addressed everything. There's nothing broken with things reverting upon healing, and I can tell you that this was actually the intention of the original heal (having spoken with Elders who have been around longer than myself). We've fixed heal, made it how it should have worked, and made it so that it works with our current rules. I'm not keen on trying to break the game, which is what the suggestions so far would do.
Unless something new is raised here, I'll just let this thread go. Nothing new to actually say, sorry.
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alright well hey thanks for the discussion!
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Does this mean Potter's field can make a come back? Lol
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YAS :laugh:
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Yeah except for the fact that with this current ruling of Paul going to dc, becoming Saul again by game rule, he CAN be targeted by Peter as a HERO, or in the next phase by love and even brass serpent, healed, then reverted back to Paul the hero with previously placed but discarded enhancements..
Is this correct? If so, how?
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Yeah except for the fact that with this current ruling of Paul going to dc, becoming Saul again by game rule, he CAN be targeted by Peter as a HERO, or in the next phase by love and even brass serpent, healed, then reverted back to Paul the hero with previously placed but discarded enhancements..
Is this correct? If so, how?
it's so funny to me that you would tell me it stinks as if i am trying to get the ruling to be in my favor when all i am speaking is the truth
read the reg.. read the boards. redoubter already has said it works..
it is completely beyond logic that an evil character, saul, in the discard pile can play love to heal himself and come back to life as paul with peace joy etc with no other hero in territory to play love on. you are literally playing love on an evil character in your dc pile..
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Yeah except for the fact that with this current ruling of Paul going to dc, becoming Saul again by game rule, he CAN be targeted by Peter as a HERO, or in the next phase by love and even brass serpent, healed, then reverted back to Paul the hero with previously placed but discarded enhancements..
Is this correct? If so, how?
Yes.
If a character was discarded earlier in the turn, a heal ability must be able to target or be played on that character as it existed prior to being discarded (the character type and brigade it had prior to being discarded), not as it is at face value in discard pile.
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@Redoubter. Thank you for all of your input and explanation on this topic. I wouldn't say that heal is very intuitive with how it works but functionally I get it and it makes sense. I am still curious as to what constitutes searching vice looking though. I don't know of any current issues atm. But I guess if a scenario came up where searching as a whole came up would uzzah and Kidron valley be stopped? I guess I'm more confused about whether those search for a card or look for a card and why it's ruled that way. I want to say that it's a search because it specifies an action to be taken? I'm just unsure. I guess mostly I'm curious so I might intuitively be able to tell the difference for some future situatuon. Thank you for all your work into this as well.