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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: crustpope on May 07, 2009, 10:07:30 AM

Title: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: crustpope on May 07, 2009, 10:07:30 AM

Ok I make a RA with Micah with HT up.  I play Sword of the Lord to make my Greek scholar fight my twelve fingered Giant.  It is a stalemate and initiative is passed to the one I control.  I play displeased Philistines and then pass initiative and the side battle ends.

Displeased PhilistinesType: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 0 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Opponent (s) may not draw any cards or search draw pile next turn. • Play As: All opponents are prevented from drawing or searching draw pile next turn. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: I Samuel 29:7


Back in the main battle, I have initiative and I play A New Beginning:

A New Beginning
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: 4 / 5 • Class: None • Special Ability: ALL players shuffle ALL cards in the field of play, set-aside areas and their hands back into their draw pile. Only cards in Land of Redemption and discard piles remain. ALL players Draw 8 new cards. Holder may begin a new turn. • Errata: If making a rescue attempt, ALL players shuffle ALL cards in the field of play, set-aside areas and their hands back into their draw pile. Only cards in Land of Redemption and discard piles remain. ALL players draw 8 new cards. Holder may begin a new turn. [Note: The new turn begins when the new hands are drawn.] • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 8:15-17 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Ultra Rare)


So does Displeased philistines prevent my opponent from drawing the 8 new cards for aA NEw Beginning?

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: Gabe on May 07, 2009, 10:14:01 AM

That could be a devastating combo...

...but I would say no, it doesn't work.  ANB says the new turn doesn't begin until the hands are drawn.  To me, that says each player draws 8, then the new turn starts.

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: Bryon on May 07, 2009, 10:18:19 AM

I think it is:
-shuffle everything
-end battle phase
-skip discard phase and end turn
-every player draws 8
-begin new turn

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: The Schaef on May 07, 2009, 11:29:54 AM

That's how I've always understood it

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: STAMP on May 07, 2009, 11:36:42 AM

 +1 with the added note that I've always interpreted the verbiage on Displeased Philistines to mean the opponents' turns.  ANB initiates a new turn for you, not your opponents.

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: crustpope on May 07, 2009, 12:11:37 PM

darn, I thought I had a neat little combo going on there.  Oh well.

Its acutally better anyway, because if they dont draw any cards, then they wont draw any LS's with them for you to rescue.

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: RTSmaniac on May 08, 2009, 12:13:25 AM

ok- so what if i played ANB after displeased philistines, shuffle, start new turn and then ANB again?

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: RTSmaniac on May 08, 2009, 12:24:55 AM

maybe i should try to rephrase the question...
micah w/ HT
sword of the lord
(side battle) dipleased philistines
ANB
---------------------------------------
start new turn (ongoing ability of DP)
ANB (opponent trying to draw but cant b4 new turn begins)
---------------------------------------
 start new turn

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: RTSmaniac on May 08, 2009, 12:31:45 AM

would this cause a glitch in the matrix stopping a new turn from beginning

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: Master KChief on May 08, 2009, 03:34:48 AM

i believe that would work. type 2 combo, anyone?

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: RedemptionAggie on May 08, 2009, 04:05:32 AM

Based on STAMP's reasoning (it applies to each opponent's individual turn), I don't think that would work.

I don't know if that's how it currently works (or if that's how it's supposed to work), but that's the way I've seen it played.

The SA and Play As for Political Bribes, which uses a similar wording:
Special Ability: Each opponent must either skip next draw phase or make no rescue attempt that turn. • Play as: Each opponent is prevented from either drawing cards during draw phase next turn or making a rescue attempt next turn. (Opponent chooses)

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: The Schaef on May 08, 2009, 07:52:24 AM

It does not work because Bryon's formula says shuffle, end turn, draw, new turn.  The second ANB ends the second turn, after which the player can draw whatever he wants.  So no matter how many ANB's you play, the d8 is never stopped, and only the opponent's next draw phase after you've done all that is stopped.

About the only way I can see it happening is if you can find a combo to let him take his turn with no draw, then playing ANB again on each of your turns.  It's about the same either way, either:
- block, play Displeased Philistines, cause Hero side battle, ANB, opponent goes again with no draw, or
- rescue, cause EC side battle, Displeased Philistines, ANB, you take another regular turn, opponent goes with no draw

Both of them depend entirely on the chance that you draw ANB, Displeased Philistines, a green Hero, a black EC, and a new side battle card each time you re-shuffle.

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: RTSmaniac on May 08, 2009, 11:43:38 AM

ANB says if making a rescue attempt

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: The Schaef on May 08, 2009, 11:44:34 AM

So it's even harder because only one of those scenarios works.

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: RTSmaniac on May 08, 2009, 11:51:57 AM

ok- so i just attack with Hur after ANB. Would that work?

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: MichaelHue on May 08, 2009, 12:00:35 PM

Hur cannot be negated, and Displeased Philistines is a prevent, so no.

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: RTSmaniac on May 08, 2009, 12:04:02 PM

but wouldnt it be a prevent with cbn status?

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: The Schaef on May 08, 2009, 12:15:34 PM

Yes but the opponent is still not taking his next turn yet.

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: RTSmaniac on May 08, 2009, 12:26:50 PM

it doesnt say opponents next turn. It says next turn opponent may not draw cards or make a rescue attempt.  And they obviously cant make a rescue attempt

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: The Schaef on May 08, 2009, 12:31:46 PM

The opponent is the target of the ability.  The next turn is his next turn.

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: RTSmaniac on May 08, 2009, 12:32:06 PM

cant search deck srry.

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: RTSmaniac on May 08, 2009, 12:37:20 PM

no- it says the next turn. Wanna give it play as? Errata?
usually it would be thier next turn. Who ever created the card didn't think about all aspects of future uses and then someone like me comes along and tries to come up with ways to use the ability in a more creative fashion.

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: The Schaef on May 08, 2009, 12:38:38 PM

It doesn't need it.  If you set aside with a card that says "gain 1/1 per turn" or use a poison that says "decrease 1/1 per turn", does that happen on each of the target player's turns, or does it happen every single turn regardless of who is taking that turn?

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: RTSmaniac on May 08, 2009, 12:40:03 PM

and now i give you the new and improved displeased philistines...
*POOF*
taadaa:)

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: RTSmaniac on May 08, 2009, 12:48:04 PM

and my reply is that it does need it. It should have said
 target player is prevented from drawing any cards or seaching drawpile on thier next turn.
Why does gabriel(wa) search for any enhancment? B/C he was meant to? No. Its just that someone upstairs likes it that way. One day even that card wont work in that way.
the card says next turn.
ive created the next turn.
hey, at least you get to keep a card. :)

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: The Schaef on May 08, 2009, 12:53:44 PM

Your argument does not agree with the rules.  Sorry.
Your argument also does not agree with how rulings are made.  Gabriel searches for any Enhancement because that's what the card says.  Split Altar is a weaker national promo because it only does what the card says.  Cards are pretty much never errata'd just for the sake of making them cooler, a serious detriment to gameplay must be demonstrated.

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: Bryon on May 08, 2009, 01:00:44 PM

The "next turn" is understood "opponent's next turn."  How else would the card normally accomplish anything?  You attack me on YOUR turn, I play DP and then you can't draw or search on MY turn?  That doesn't make any sense.  Everyone has been playing it understanding the "next turn" as "opponent's next turn."

Plus, CBN prevent still can't stop a CBN draw.  The draw happens because Hur says so, and the ability on Hur cannot be negated (by ANYTHING).

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: RTSmaniac on May 08, 2009, 02:03:09 PM

um hm.
makes perfect sense
c'mon guys- you know as well as i as well as everyone else on this board.
you just dont want your perfect little world to fall apart.
and your trying to do everything you can to prevent that from happening.
you know what- the more cards thats created, the harder it's going to be to hold it all together.

(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcactusgamedesign.com%2Fmessage_boards%2FThemes%2Fdefault%2Fimages%2Fwarnwarn.gif&hash=f188073d20178564d50031f137e93fd1b4cf549e) Let's not make this personal.

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: RTSmaniac on May 08, 2009, 02:05:49 PM

and if you look at each others post, your just contradicting each other. Thats what is wrong with this game. Inconsistancy.

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: RTSmaniac on May 08, 2009, 02:08:27 PM

well its understood to play like this- and then this card specifically says play it like that.

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: TimMierz on May 08, 2009, 02:09:42 PM

I see no such contradiction or inconsistency.

Stephen remarks that things that happen "every turn" happen on the turn of the player who controls the character.
Bryon remarks that "next turn" happens on the turn of the targeted player.
Those are the same thing.

Bryon also notes that under your interpretation, the card would do nothing UNLESS it were played in a side battle or multiplayer match. Incidentally, that is the fate of False Dreams, but that's got different wording.

Quote from: RTSmaniac on May 08, 2009, 02:08:27 PM

well its understood to play like this- and then this card specifically says play it like that.

I don't know what you mean by this at all.

Title: Re: Displeased philistines and ANB
Post by: The Schaef on May 08, 2009, 02:10:31 PM

This is not about "holding everything together", our posts do not contradict since they say the same exact thing, and if consistency matters to you, then you'll treat Displeased Philistines the same way you treat set-asides and poisons.

And your attitude has earned a thread closure.  Constructive criticism is welcome but I've been far too tolerant of personal attacks.  That ends now.