Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Warrior_Monk on October 11, 2010, 12:18:06 AM
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Why isn't Matthias a Disciple?
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I would say because he wasn't one of the original 12 and because his credibility as a true disciple has long been debated. Some Bible teachers view Matthias as an “invalid” apostle and believe that Paul was God's choice to replace Judas Iscariot as the twelfth apostle and not Matthias.
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You'd think Jesus could have made it easier and just said: "Oh, before I go, I want X to be the new Disciple. Cheerio!".
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Doesn't Matthias' verse say he was counted among the 12? What more could you ask for?
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Well, they casted lots, which "casts" his position into question.
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Well, they casted lots, which "casts" his position into question.
Unless, of course, you go to the Bible for comment:
Proverbs 16:33: The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.
Matthias met the criteria set by the apostles for a disciple, he was accepted by them and the church as a disciple, he was selected by the divinely guide lot as a disciple, and he was recorded in the Holy Spirit-inspired book of Acts as a disciple. I That's more than enough evidence for me.
To answer the standard critique, Paul did not meet the criteria set in Acts 1 for a disciple, and his apostleship was real but of a different nature. Beside, do you really want Paul counted as a disciple in Redemption? I can only imagine the brokenness that would ensue.
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Well, they casted lots, which "casts" his position into question.
Unless, of course, you go to the Bible for comment:
Proverbs 16:33: The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.
It all depends on one's definition of "disciple". I'm unsure where I stand.
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I think that Matthias should be classified as a Disciple, but I'm not sure whether he will be or not.
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Hey,
The Redemption definition of Disciple is limited to the 12 individuals that Jesus called and that followed Him during His earthly life.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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So while Redemption tries to become more Biblically correct with the new demon ruling, it remains Biblically incorrect on disciples? :dunno:
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Hey,
So while Redemption tries to become more Biblically correct with the new demon ruling, it remains Biblically incorrect on disciples? :dunno:
So when someone asks you how many disciples Jesus had do you tell them 13?
The demon ruling isn't a biblical correctness issue, it's a problematic theology issue. (And in my personal opinion it's a ruling we shouldn't have made.)
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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No, I tell them 12. Judas forfeited his place, and was replaced Matthias. No future vacancies on the disciple team were. Therefore, Jesus had 12 disciples, first including Judas, then including Matthias.
When Jesus told his disciples they would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel, who do you think He envisioned on the 12th throne? Judas?
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So when someone asks you how many disciples Jesus had do you tell them 13?
It depends on if they're asking how many at one time or how many overall. 12 at one time, 12 good and 1 evil overall.
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We usually don't say 13 tribes either, since Manasseh and Ephraim are only "half" tribes.
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So when someone asks you how many disciples Jesus had do you tell them 13?
No, I would tell them hundreds or probably thousands. The gospels talk about many many disciples that followed Jesus during His earthly ministry; at certain points some abandoned Him due to hard teachings or other reasons but there were many still left at the end. See how many Jesus appeared to after His resurrection or how many were in the room at Pentecost.
I think Redemption should have used "Apostles" instead of "Disciples" as the keyword for the 12. Out of the many disciples, Jesus chose 12 to also be apostles. While the number of disciples continued to change, the group of Apostles was more limited. Because of their special position they are also referred to as "The 12 disciples". I think people often refer to them as "The 12 disciples" during Jesus' earthly ministry and as "The 12 Apostles" after His ascension. It seems that it is this group that they meant to refer to with disciples. Biblically "disciples" should refer to all the people that followed Him but that would be way overpowered and is not what they meant with those cards.
I think the issue with the game is, who do we want to target with a card? I know they want to reduce words used but if they just want the cards to work with the 12 then I wish they would have worded it that way.
So in regards to the group of 12, Judas should be counted as one. He is part of that original group chosen by Jesus and Matthias is not. My translation says that Matthias was numbered with the eleven apostles and that is the same language used for Judas. So for post ascension cards that refer to the apostles, Matthias should be counted as one of them. Paul is definitely an apostle but I don't think he is counted as one of the 12.
P.S.
Who was included in the 12 tribes changed; their are a couple different lists.
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Hey,
So while Redemption tries to become more Biblically correct with the new demon ruling, it remains Biblically incorrect on disciples? :dunno:
So when someone asks you how many disciples Jesus had do you tell them 13?
The demon ruling isn't a biblical correctness issue, it's a problematic theology issue. (And in my personal opinion it's a ruling we shouldn't have made.)
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
I agree.
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It's nigh impossible to design something like this and please everyone.
There were never more than twelve disciples. Problem is, Redemption takes all of ~5,000 years and puts it together into one window, so we've got 13...
When I'm teaching new people Redemption, I like to say "It only has occasional moments of heresy."
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Hey,
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disciples (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disciples)
Definition 1-a "one of the 12 personal followers of Christ."
We may not have chosen the same definition or word that you might have, but that doesn't make our choice wrong.
NOTE: "you" is not directed at any person in particular.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Personally, I feel like Matthias deserves the title of Apostle way more than Judas, but that's by my definition.
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So we're using dictionary definitions of "Disciple" but not "Heretic?" I ask again, why are we ignoring the "divisive" part of the definition of Heretic and making it only the "false doctrine" part?
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Apostle was a bit larger than the 12, it included the 11, Matthias, Paul, Jesus's brothers, and a few other people I think, Disciple really refers to everyone who ever followed anyone really, but if you limit it to Jesus, then you still get everyone that followed Jesus and obeyed his teachings, however we are using a much less stricted definition.
I am fine with this and I am ok with Matthias not becoming a disciple because he took Judas's place after the resurection.
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Apostles are the 12. Disciples are greater in number than the Apostles. Redemption should have used Apostles.
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So is this sort of like the Salome vs. Salome argument? intent vs. circumstance?
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Paul seems to think he's an Apostle, and he's not one of the 12
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I think he has a good case theologically, which seems to be the way the game is going lately.
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Hey,
What term would you use if you wanted to refer to one of the twelve that Jesus called and that followed Him durring His earthly life?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
What term would you use if you wanted to refer to one of the twelve that Jesus called and that followed Him durring His earthly life?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
Brother.(Baptist's do this BTW) Or Apostle.
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Fact. Disciple is not just the 12. Fact.
Fact. Matthias is called a disciple. Fact.
Fact. Redemption does not specify "the 12." Fact.
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Hospitality of Martha (Wo)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: Martha may band with any Hero known as one of Jesus' 12 disciples. • Identifiers: NT, Spiritual Gift • Verse: John 12:2 • Availability: Women booster packs (Uncommon)
Ordained as a Disciple (P)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set one of Jesus’ 12 Disciples aside for one turn. That Hero gains the ability, “Heal a Hero in play or place a demon in play beneath owner’s draw pile.” • Play As: Set aside one of Jesus’ 12 Disciples for one turn. That Hero gains the ability, “Heal a Hero in play or place a demon in play beneath owner’s deck.” • Identifiers: None • Verse: Mark 3:14-15 • Availability: Promotional cards (2006 Regional Tournament)
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I was referring to Thad's ability.
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i was going by the last clause of your previous post.
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Ahh, okay, understood. However, they actually support my argument more than anything. We have cards that say "the 12" and cards that say Disciples. Matthias was a Disciple, even if he wasn't one of "the 12"
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i agree with you there. matthias should count when cards use the ambiguous term of 'disciples'.