Author Topic: Did I make the right call?  (Read 4770 times)

Offline soul seeker

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Did I make the right call?
« on: March 06, 2011, 05:03:19 PM »
+1
During T1 Multi:  I made a call with Antiochus and I wonder if I was right, maybe some elders can help.

Antiochus was blocking (w/ another Greek) and used his ability.  The girl (not wanting to burn an enhancemnt) asked if she could discard a green site.  I ruled that she could because that it didn't say "good card of matching brigade," it just says "card of matching brigade."  The way I understand it...sites have brigade colors but they are not "good."

Antiochus IV Epiphanes (RA)

Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Black/Gray • Ability: 11 / 10 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: If another Greek Evil Character is in play, discard a Hero. Opponent may discard a card of matching brigade from hand or territory instead. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: Male Human, King (Greece-Syria), Royalty, Fought Earthly Battle • Verse: Josephus (OT) •

For what it's worth, in a later category she pulled the same stunt on me, and ultimately played a new beginning because I couldn't pick it off.
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Offline spicynumber1

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2011, 05:19:54 PM »
-1
I'm pretty sure it doesn't work as the site is neutral brigade and the hero is a good brigade, therefore they are not matching brigade.
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Offline Red

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2011, 05:21:40 PM »
+5
The site is green. The Hero is green. I say it works per logic.
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Offline spicynumber1

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2011, 05:24:24 PM »
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The site is green. The Hero is green. I say it works per logic.

It really boils down to what matching brigade is defined as.
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Offline crustpope

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2011, 05:42:48 PM »
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I would say it works.  Matching brigade is matching brigade regardless of alignment.  does this mean they could discard a multi fort to satisfy the requirement?  what about a covenant?  Really like a ruling on this one.
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Rawrlolsauce!

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2011, 05:45:56 PM »
0
Forts don't have brigades.

I don't think it works. If good Gold and evil Gold are different, why isn't good Green and neutral Green?

Offline Korunks

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2011, 05:48:04 PM »
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I would also rule it works.  Heroes can only rescue from a single color site that their brigade matches.  Based on the logic that those colors are considered a match I would have ruled the same way for antiochus. 
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2011, 05:50:04 PM »
+2
It really boils down to what matching brigade is defined as.

Unfortunately, "matching brigade" is not defined, hence the likelihood of inconsistent rulings. The same issue could be brought up with whether the player could discard Covenant with Moses that was activated on the Artifact Pile, rather than discard Moses. I have always understood "brigade" to refer to cards that have an alignment, therefore sites do not have "brigades," per se. Cards that refer to sites always say "single-color site" or "multicolor site," never "single-brigade site" or "multi-brigade site."

Forts don't have brigades.

I agree. The multicolor icon on a fortress only distinguishes good from evil.
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Offline crustpope

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2011, 05:55:28 PM »
0
Well that makes sense because every time I rule on a question, it always goes the other way...
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Offline CJSports

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2011, 06:24:22 PM »
0
Elder? SS if you got this wrong it's terrible (Sarcasm Meant), your a Nationals Champion. I hope this person wasn't new. ;)
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Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2011, 06:29:57 PM »
0
From the REG entry of Brigade
The Heroes and Evil Characters are subdivided into brigades. The color filling the card’s icon box indicates its brigade.

But from the REG entry of access:
1.  the Hero’s icon box contains a matching brigade color in the icon box of the site
2.  An unoccupied site is placed in battle with the Hero and the icon box on the unoccupied site contains a matching brigade color in the icon box of the occupied site.

The entry for Brigade suggest sites don't have brigades, but the entry for site access it suggests they do have brigades and they are the same as the heroes brigades, but since they always refer to the Brigade Color on sites rather than just brigade they could be considered separate, and that would make the two entries consistent.

But before reading this thread I would have ruled that the site could be discarded, and now I am not sure (not that I'm actually a judge)
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2011, 06:55:53 PM »
+2
Hey,

I'm trying to remember the last time we brought up sites brigades - I think it was with Asher trying to shuffle Pharaoh's Prison.

I'm going to go ahead and say that you ruled correctly. However I'll have to find that ruling thread and re-read it to see.

I seem to recall that we said exactly what you determined - That sites have 'brigades' they're just not 'good' brigades.

So the question really is "Does Hero Green = Site Green" Based on the rules of site access I think the answer is yes.
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Offline SomeKittens

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2011, 07:05:02 PM »
0
FWIW, I agreed with him.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2011, 08:52:27 PM »
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Well that makes sense because every time I rule on a question, it always goes the other way...

LOL. It is more likely that I am wrong, based on past experience....  ;)
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2011, 09:15:07 PM »
+2
This came up very recently and it was ruled that you can Discard a Site from hand to satisfy Herod's Temple, so the same logic applies here. You ruled correctly.
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Offline crustpope

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2011, 10:00:09 PM »
0
Well that makes sense because every time I rule on a question, it always goes the other way...

LOL. It is more likely that I am wrong, based on past experience....  ;)

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Offline Gabe

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2011, 10:48:53 PM »
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+1 to those that said it works.  They are correct.
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Offline christiangamer25

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2011, 11:13:24 PM »
0
ok i just wanna be clear so via this ruling were allowing a site of matching brigade to be a legitamate d/c for entrapping pharisee?
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Offline Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2011, 11:29:00 PM »
0
Now, if sites can be targeted by brigade... I realize they are neutral cards, but do they have "good brigades"?

*edit*

My line of thought for this:

If you can target a site as a matching brigade of a hero... Heroes have good brigades. So, is that matching brigade a good brigade?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 11:48:29 PM by Lamborghini_diablo »

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2011, 12:39:08 AM »
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No.  A "good brigade" is a "brigade" on a "good card".  A green Site is of a green brigade, but its alignment is neutral.

Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2011, 09:01:30 AM »
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No.  A "good brigade" is a "brigade" on a "good card".  A green Site is of a green brigade, but its alignment is neutral.
+1

Offline RTSmaniac

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2011, 09:09:43 AM »
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+1 to all who said it works via Herods Temple ruling.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2011, 11:58:30 AM »
0
This came up very recently and it was ruled that you can Discard a Site from hand to satisfy Herod's Temple, so the same logic applies here. You ruled correctly.

I remember that thread (I think I started it). For some reason, I think someone disagreed with me (saying it doesn't work) but since the prevailing opinion here is that it does work based on that thread, I must be misremembering. Which is good, because I agree that sites should work for matching brigades, based on how site access is defined.
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Offline Korunks

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2011, 02:53:11 PM »
0
Yay for consistency.   8)
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Offline redemptioncousin

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2011, 03:19:03 PM »
0
Can you discard a gold site to satisfy Herod's Temple when a evil gold Herod is being targeted??? There are many that are claiming the site is "neutral gold."
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Offline SomeKittens

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2011, 03:38:35 PM »
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No.  The decision was made on site access rules, and thus a gold site is "good" gold (but a neutral card)
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2011, 04:12:46 PM »
0
No.  The decision was made on site access rules, and thus a gold site is "good" gold (but a neutral card)

To clarify, the site is NOT good gold, but neutral gold. However, because of how site access rules are defined (the hero must have matching brigade to the site) then good gold and neutral gold are matching brigades for purposes of Herod's Temple/Antiochus, etc. However, nothing in the rules says that evil gold and good or neutral gold are matching, so there's no reason I could imagine that you could discard Egypt to save your Herod.
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Offline redemptioncousin

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2011, 01:57:43 PM »
0
I assume (wa) battle prayer was ruled not to work at some point.
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Offline crustpope

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2011, 02:25:02 PM »
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I assume (wa) battle prayer was ruled not to work at some point.

not that I know of, but it is about time it should.  Battle prayer (wa) is the only thing holding together Besieging the City decks
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Offline redemptioncousin

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2011, 02:33:03 PM »
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If that's true, then using a site for a herod should totally work.
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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2011, 05:57:11 PM »
0
Battle Prayer (Wa) just says "gold" and since there are two brigades that fit under that description, it's allowed to search for either. If it specified "good" gold (like the Kings version), then that would be a different story, but it does not. There is nothing about matching brigade or that good gold and evil gold are the same brigade. I assume this is why discarding a site to save a Herod with HT doesn't work.

Offline redemptioncousin

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2011, 10:37:42 AM »
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That logic seems flawed:

If the word gold allows for both good and evil brigades (see battle prayer), then a gold site (which is neutral) should satisfy anything that requires a gold card (assuming said card does not specify good/evil).
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Offline SomeKittens

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2011, 10:39:00 AM »
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But the brigade color on a site is inherently "good," due to the site access rules.
No.  The decision was made on site access rules, and thus a gold site is "good" gold (but a neutral card)

To clarify, the site is NOT good gold, but neutral gold. However, because of how site access rules are defined (the hero must have matching brigade to the site) then good gold and neutral gold are matching brigades for purposes of Herod's Temple/Antiochus, etc. However, nothing in the rules says that evil gold and good or neutral gold are matching, so there's no reason I could imagine that you could discard Egypt to save your Herod.
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Offline STAMP

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2011, 11:00:34 AM »
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Reaso...

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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2011, 11:49:28 AM »
0
But the brigade color on a site is inherently "good," due to the site access rules.
No.  The decision was made on site access rules, and thus a gold site is "good" gold (but a neutral card)

To clarify, the site is NOT good gold, but neutral gold. However, because of how site access rules are defined (the hero must have matching brigade to the site) then good gold and neutral gold are matching brigades for purposes of Herod's Temple/Antiochus, etc. However, nothing in the rules says that evil gold and good or neutral gold are matching, so there's no reason I could imagine that you could discard Egypt to save your Herod.
I don't understand how you say site brigade is good, then quote an Elder who says it isn't.
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Offline Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2011, 11:55:39 AM »
0
But the brigade color on a site is inherently "good," due to the site access rules.
No.  The decision was made on site access rules, and thus a gold site is "good" gold (but a neutral card)

To clarify, the site is NOT good gold, but neutral gold. However, because of how site access rules are defined (the hero must have matching brigade to the site) then good gold and neutral gold are matching brigades for purposes of Herod's Temple/Antiochus, etc. However, nothing in the rules says that evil gold and good or neutral gold are matching, so there's no reason I could imagine that you could discard Egypt to save your Herod.
I don't understand how you say site brigade is good, then quote an Elder who says it isn't.

It's easy to understand how he did it. The real question is why.  ;)

Offline SomeKittens

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2011, 01:53:50 PM »
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That's why I keep putting the quotes around "good."  Egypt isn't evil gold, it isn't good gold, but it can be targeted as a good gold card based on how site access works.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2011, 02:20:50 PM »
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That's why I keep putting the quotes around "good."  Egypt isn't evil gold, it isn't good gold, but it can be targeted as a good gold card based on how site access works.

No...the REG says that in order to have access to a site, a Hero must have a matching brigade to the site, or another form of access. That is why if a card says matching brigade, sites and Heroes have matching brigade. This also makes sense intuitively, because the colors in the icon box are the same.

However, it has also been decided that in order to enforce the idea that sites are neutral, they don't have good brigades. They have neutral brigades. This means that if a card refers to the number of good brigades in your territory, sites are not included. This also means that they cannot be targeted as good gold cards. If a card simply said "gold card" then it could target gold sites, since neutral gold is gold, just like good gold and evil gold are both gold.

The only reason it was ruled that sites can satisfy Herod's Temple is the REG quote about site access. Good gold does not match evil gold, but because the only way for the REG to make sense in that case, good gold is a matching brigade to neutral gold.
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Offline SomeKittens

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2011, 03:06:35 PM »
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Thanks for clarifying that point.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2011, 03:44:51 PM »
0
Thanks for clarifying that point.

No problem. That's why I'm here.
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Offline galadgawyn

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2011, 09:40:27 PM »
+1
I gotta say that this seems logically ridiculous. 

Site have neutral brigades and heros have good brigades which are different brigades but they are matching brigades because they are the same color.  Usually matching means it is the same but not in this case.  Evil brigades however don't match good or neutral brigades even if they are the same color.  So we know the good card matches because it is good but the site brigade isn't good. 

I think it would be far simpler and more logical to simply say that sites are neutral cards that depict (have) good brigades on them.  The sites have always been just the good brigades; there are no black, brown, etc, sites.

Someone countered that brigade colors were not inherently good or evil.  They said how could you know that the gold site was good and not evil gold brigade; so it was neither it was just gold color.  They were saying that someday we could have a good black and brown brigade and therefore have sites of those colors.  I just don't see this being the case.  (although I think it would be cool to have black sites)  I see that colors aren't inherently good or evil but I think brigades are.  We don't have any neutral brigades in the game other than the supposed site brigades.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2013, 12:38:15 AM »
0
Is this still the current ruling? (That a Site can be discarded for Herod's Temple or Antiochus)

Would it make a difference if the Site was DragonRaid?

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Offline Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2013, 09:27:22 AM »
0
Reading through this again, there is one point that was never brought up in the past.

Sites are neutral cards.

The OP incorrectly quoted Ant IV's ability, stating that it said "Good card of matching brigade." The card actually says: "...Opponent may discard a card of matching brigade from hand or territory instead..."

Therefore, I'd say discarding a site for Ant IV is fine. If another ability were to specify a good card of matching brigade, then I would say no.

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2013, 10:04:34 AM »
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As far as I know, the rule is still current, and appropriately-colored sites (including DR) are matching brigades for those abilities.
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Offline DDiceRC

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2013, 02:15:16 PM »
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...They were saying that someday we could have a good black and brown brigade and therefore have sites of those colors.  I just don't see this being the case.  (although I think it would be cool to have black sites)... 


You can do that with the Redemption Card Creator:


BTW, that card makes perfect sense in the context of the game for which it was created.
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Offline JDS

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2020, 04:26:38 PM »
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Is it still the case that a site can match a hero's brigade? Say for the purpose of exchanging or discarding a card of matching brigade.

Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Did I make the right call?
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2020, 05:05:15 PM »
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Is it still the case that a site can match a hero's brigade? Say for the purpose of exchanging or discarding a card of matching brigade.
Yes. The brigades are not tied to their alignment - a captured character is a neutral card of it's brigade (but usually isn't targetable by anything that cares), so all 16 can exist as neutral.