Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: TheHobbit13 on December 19, 2011, 05:04:09 PM
-
I use gomer to band to a random ec. Gomer gets aotl'ed is she considered defeated? Did she lose the battle?
What if they play Grapes on her?
-
I'd say yes:
Defeat
Defeat is caused when a character’s toughness is less than or equal to an opposing character’s strength. A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle. A Hero(es) is defeated when the Hero(es) in battle are discarded, repelled or otherwise fails to make a successful rescue such as in a stalemate. The Evil Character(s) is defeated when the Evil Character(s) in battle are discarded, ignored or otherwise fails to stop the Hero from making a successful rescue such as in a mutual destruction by numbers.
-
Thanks. I would a assume defeat is the same as a loss correct? Elders to you have anything to say on this matter?
-
Thanks. I would a assume defeat is the same as a loss correct? Elders to you have anything to say on this matter?
I would say that loss != defeat. Gomer was defeated, but you have not lost the battle.
-
But did she lose?
-
But did she lose?
To my knowledge, losing is not character driven, but battle driven. Given that the battle is still occurring, there has been no loss.
-
Thanks. I would a assume defeat is the same as a loss correct? Elders to you have anything to say on this matter?
I would say that loss != defeat. Gomer was defeated, but you have not lost the battle.
I agree with Kittens. I understand it is a bit confusing. But Gomer was defeated (by being discarded), however the battle is not lost (because the other EC fights on).
-
Hey now, be careful how you're tossing around the definition of "defeat". These type of threads always turn into philosophical discussions. Gomer is NOT defeated. You don't find out until battle resolution. Otherwise, PW is ready to start grabbing heroes' BVDs again.
Potiphar's Wife (Wo)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Gold • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: When character defeats a male Hero in the Field of Battle, the Hero is taken prisoner and placed in your opponent's Land of Bondage and treated as a Lost Soul. • Play As: If male Heroes are defeated by a win or stalemate by Potiphar's wife, capture and place them in opponent's land of bondage instead. • Identifiers: OT Female Human, Egypt • Verse: Genesis 39:9
-
Hey now, be careful how you're tossing around the definition of "defeat".
Defeat
...The Evil Character(s) is defeated when the Evil Character(s) in battle are discarded...
Am I missing something here? Are you saying that none of the ECs are defeated until the battle is over and it is determined that all of the ECs were defeated?
Because otherwise, I don't see any reason why discarding one of them would not count as defeating that one.
-
Hey now, be careful how you're tossing around the definition of "defeat".
Defeat
...The Evil Character(s) is defeated when the Evil Character(s) in battle are discarded...
Am I missing something here? Are you saying that none of the ECs are defeated until the battle is over and it is determined that all of the ECs were defeated?
Because otherwise, I don't see any reason why discarding one of them would not count as defeating that one.
The reason being we have had 183,237 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/pots-wife-(for-the-183237th-time)/msg441316/#msg441316) threads about "Potiphar's Wife/Failed Objective". And in every single one of them, the Elders have never really come to any consensus.
-
The reason being we have had 183,237 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/pots-wife-(for-the-183237th-time)/msg441316/#msg441316) threads about "Potiphar's Wife/Failed Objective". And in every single one of them, the Elders have never really come to any consensus.
I think the tricky part of Pot's Wife isn't the word "defeat", but the word "by". I'm still thinking that play AotL on Gomer causes Gomer to be "defeated".
However, if Pot's Wife happens to be in battle, and the hero was discarded by Christian Martyr, then they also would be "defeated", but not defeated "by" Pot's Wife.
-
Whatever. I've got bigger fish to fry. ;)
-
What is the definition of Defeated?
-
What is the definition of Defeated?
REG definition:
Defeat
Defeat is caused when a character’s toughness is less than or equal to an opposing character’s strength. A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle. A Hero(es) is defeated when the Hero(es) in battle are discarded, repelled or otherwise fails to make a successful rescue such as in a stalemate. The Evil Character(s) is defeated when the Evil Character(s) in battle are discarded, ignored or otherwise fails to stop the Hero from making a successful rescue such as in a mutual destruction by numbers.
-
So If Potiphers Wife manages to return a hero from battle to territory she defeated that character?
-
Yep
-
Thanks, Just making sure I am following the discussion correctly, and that we are being consistent.
-
That quote from the REG is very equivocal. My understanding is that victory and defeat are determined during battle resolution, and the quote backs that up. However, the side that says defeat can be determined mid-battle can use the same quote to support their position because it mentions being discarded, ignored, etc.
My reading of it is that it's determined in the resolution, and the verbage about "discarded, etc." is meant to be exemplary of why a character would come do defeat during the resolution, not conditions for defeat in themselves. In either case, the entry needs to be simplified (don't use examples ever, it only causes confusion) and clarified (an entry that can be taken in two opposite ways with equal validity is not worded correctly).
-
So If Potiphers Wife manages to return a hero from battle to territory she defeated that character?
...and now the question has been asked for the 183,238th time. ::)
FWIW, I agree with Pol.
-
My understanding is if a Character is discarded, they are defeated I'm not sure on kickbacks/Protecting LS's because that is crazy w/ PW.
-
My understanding is that victory and defeat are determined during battle resolution
That's why I asked this question:
Are you saying that none of the ECs are defeated until the battle is over and it is determined that all of the ECs were defeated?
Schaef usually shows up and clarifies this, and I can never seem to remember which words happen immediately, and which ones happen at battle resolution. So I'd wait until another Elder chimes in on this one. However, if Pol is correct about it happening at battle resolution, then Gomer would NOT be considered "defeated" until the battle was over, and would depend on how things turned out.
-
My understanding is that victory and defeat are determined during battle resolution
That's why I asked this question:
Are you saying that none of the ECs are defeated until the battle is over and it is determined that all of the ECs were defeated?
Schaef usually shows up and clarifies this, and I can never seem to remember which words happen immediately, and which ones happen at battle resolution. So I'd wait until another Elder chimes in on this one. However, if Pol is correct about it happening at battle resolution, then Gomer would NOT be considered "defeated" until the battle was over, and would depend on how things turned out.
Winner, winner, chicken dinner. ;)
BTW, I +1 with Schaef.
-
That doesn't seem to be how we play it here. But then again, it was never challenged here since I started playing in this area.
-
That quote from the REG is very equivocal. My understanding is that victory and defeat are determined during battle resolution, and the quote backs that up. However, the side that says defeat can be determined mid-battle can use the same quote to support their position because it mentions being discarded, ignored, etc.
My reading of it is that it's determined in the resolution, and the verbage about "discarded, etc." is meant to be exemplary of why a character would come do defeat during the resolution, not conditions for defeat in themselves. In either case, the entry needs to be simplified (don't use examples ever, it only causes confusion) and clarified (an entry that can be taken in two opposite ways with equal validity is not worded correctly).
Is there one only one "win" or does each evil character in battle win in resolution. For example would you be able to release multiple demons from tartaros with one block?
Tartaros
"Release one demon to holders territory from tartaros when one of holders demon wins in battle"
-
No, only one win per battle.
-
I can't find anything in the REG about the definition of "win a battle." Am I looking in the wrong places?
-
In the rulebook, there are entries in Diagram of a Turn > Battle Resolution for each outcome, two of which are Hero Wins and Evil Character Wins. Here (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/Master/evilcharacterwins.htm) is the EC Wins entry, for instance.
-
Hmm. From the exact wording there, it seems that each win is individual.
-
It doesn't sound like that to me. It sounds like EC (meaning whoever is in Battle) not just 1 EC wins at a time. It's why u can only rescue 1 LS per turn by a Hero. If every Hero in Battle won, then per the game rule each Hero would win an LS.
-
Is there one only one "win" or does each evil character in battle win in resolution. For example would you be able to release multiple demons from tartaros with one block?
Tartaros
"Release one demon to holders territory from tartaros when one of holders demon wins in battle"
Hmm. From the exact wording there, it seems that each win is individual.
It doesn't sound like that to me. It sounds like EC (meaning whoever is in Battle) not just 1 EC wins at a time. It's why u can only rescue 1 LS per turn by a Hero. If every Hero in Battle won, then per the game rule each Hero would win an LS.
Can I get an Elder on this?
-
I do know that there is precedent for each block being individual.