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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: galadgawyn on February 02, 2011, 09:25:16 PM

Title: deck protection
Post by: galadgawyn on February 02, 2011, 09:25:16 PM
If players decks are protected by Jerusalem Tower, Nazareth, Simon the Zealot, etc, will any of those stop making them draw cards or cards like Divination or Susanna? 
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on February 03, 2011, 09:29:40 AM
no.

Protect>CBN

Now if this was last season... :o
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: SomeKittens on February 03, 2011, 09:55:11 AM
None of the abilities of the first set protect from the abilities of the second set.
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: adotson85 on February 03, 2011, 10:14:34 AM
Quote from: galadgawyn on February 02, 2011, 09:25:16 PM
If players decks are protected by Jerusalem Tower, Nazareth, Simon the Zealot, etc, will any of those stop making them draw cards or cards like Divination or Susanna? 

Nazareth,while in a territory, stops the special abilitites on Divination and Susanna. "Look at" is considered a search ability.
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: SomeKittens on February 03, 2011, 10:45:34 AM
I don't think so.  You're only observing cards in your deck, not searching for one.
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: Gabe on February 04, 2011, 11:12:38 PM
"Look" is it's own ability, similar, but different than "Search" abilities.  The elders have discussed this and we are in agreement.  Some players have interpreted the following passage to mean that "Look" and "Search" are the same:

Quote from: REG
You may not look at cards in any draw pile or discard pile (other than the top card of the discard pile) unless a special ability on a card allows a player to search a deck (see Beginning a Game).

We've decided to update this portion of the REG to clarify the intent:

"You may not look at cards in any draw pile or discard pile (other than the top card of the discard pile) unless a special ability allows you to search for or look at cards, or a special ability reveals a player's cards, from a deck or discard pile (see Beginning a Game)."
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on February 04, 2011, 11:50:25 PM
So the elders agreed that "look" and "search" are different abilities but according to your quote they are different? What's up wit dat?  :o  :P
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: Gabe on February 05, 2011, 01:14:42 AM
Quote from: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on February 04, 2011, 11:50:25 PM
So the elders agreed that "look" and "search" are different abilities but according to your quote they are different? What's up wit dat?  :o  :P

I don't understand your question.
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: Crashfach2002 on February 05, 2011, 09:37:24 AM
Quote from: Gabe on February 05, 2011, 01:14:42 AM
Quote from: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on February 04, 2011, 11:50:25 PM
So the elders agreed that "look" and "search" are different abilities but according to your quote they are different? What's up wit dat?  :o  :P

I don't understand your question.

One question I have off of this, is since Susanna & Divination both are "searching" for a specific type of card, can you still "look" and take one into hand?
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: Gabe on February 05, 2011, 09:45:54 AM
Quote from: Crashfach2002 on February 05, 2011, 09:37:24 AM
One question I have off of this, is since Susanna & Divination both are "searching" for a specific type of card, can you still "look" and take one into hand?

Yes.  Divination and Susanna both use a "look" ability.  Search, Look and Reveal are different abilities with similar results.
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: galadgawyn on February 05, 2011, 09:54:31 AM
Ok, I like your answers. 

I'm still trying to understand logically, if their deck is protected from my cards how I can make them draw cards from it? 

Is draw somehow defined to not target cards in deck?  then what does it target?  does it not target anything?
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: Gabe on February 05, 2011, 11:00:14 AM
Your opponent never draws cards from your deck, only you do.  So a player can never be protected from forced draw by an opponent.
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on February 05, 2011, 12:42:41 PM
How about cards that say "opponent must discard'? Am I making them discard, or are they discarding their own cards?
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: RTSmaniac on February 05, 2011, 06:07:24 PM
Instant Special Abilities > Search, Reveal, or Exchange
General Description
A search card allows you to look at the cards in a deck, artifact pile, or a player’s hand.  Searching implies only you see the targeted card(s).  Reveal means that all players see the targeted card(s).  Random selection from an opponent’s hand or selecting from your own hand are not considered a search or a reveal. You may not look at cards in any draw pile or discard pile (other than the top card of the discard pile) unless a special ability on a card allows a player to search a deck (see Beginning a Game).

A revealed card is considered to be in the same location from which it is revealed. Revealing a card makes the card visible to all players.

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 03, 2011, 10:45:34 AM
I don't think so.  You're only observing cards in your deck, not searching for one.
A search card allows you to look at the cards in a deck, artifact pile, or a player’s hand.  Searching implies only you see the targeted card(s).

Quote from: Gabe on February 04, 2011, 11:12:38 PM
"Look" is it's own ability, similar, but different than "Search" abilities.  The elders have discussed this and we are in agreement.
In looking, are you the only one seeing the card? yes. I feel Look should be considered a subset of a Search ability.
 
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: adotson85 on February 06, 2011, 01:41:30 AM
Quote from: RTSmaniac on February 05, 2011, 06:07:24 PM

Quote from: Gabe on February 04, 2011, 11:12:38 PM
"Look" is it's own ability, similar, but different than "Search" abilities.  The elders have discussed this and we are in agreement.
In looking, are you the only one seeing the card? yes. I feel Look should be considered a subset of a Search ability.
 

I agree with RTS. This is how I thought it was/should be played also. Divination seems like it is searching for an evil card, even though it does not specifcally say "search" in the title. However the plays as for divination does say "search." So i'm guessing Nazareth only protects from cards that specifically say "search?"
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: galadgawyn on February 06, 2011, 04:50:17 PM
Quote
Your opponent never draws cards from your deck, only you do.  So a player can never be protected from forced draw by an opponent.

Similar to Lambo's hand discard analogy, what if you are using Stand in the Gap and they use that Babylonian Magician to make you discard, and the only cards in territory are cards protected by Stand in the Gap?  Do you discard?

I would think not but I don't really see how this is different from the drawing.
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: RTSmaniac on February 07, 2011, 12:05:23 AM
Standing in the Gap (FF)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Red • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set your Hero aside for up to 5 turns. While that Hero is set aside, protect your hand, deck, multi-color Sites, and good Fortresses from opponent’s evil cards. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Nehemiah 4:13 • Availability: Faith of our Fathers booster packs (None)

Astrologers (TP)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Crimson/Pale Green • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: Reveal the top or bottom card of deck. If it is evil, add it to hand and opponent must discard one of his cards from territory, except a Lost Soul. Cannot be interrupted. • Play As: Reveal the top or bottom card of deck. If it is evil, place it in hand and opponent must discard one of his cards from territory, except a Lost Soul. Cannot be interrupted. • Identifiers: Generic OT Male Human, Magician (Babylonia) • Verse: Daniel 2:27 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs

galadgawyn has a good point. If deck is protected from opponents cards can he force me to draw using a special ability?
 
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: Minister Polarius on February 07, 2011, 12:25:33 AM
No. The reason it works against JT is that forced draw is not considered removing cards from deck (which is what JT restricts). But if your deck is wholly protected from opponents' cards period, that would stop forced draw.

As a rule of thumb, it is a good idea to look at what cards say specifically, as cards that have seemingly similar abilities may actually have totally unrelated abilities and therefore are not good comparisons to each other when figuring out rulings.
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: RTSmaniac on February 07, 2011, 12:56:04 AM
So is there a card that protects owners deck from opponents cards?
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: Minister Polarius on February 07, 2011, 01:04:46 AM
Simon Zealotes does, I believe.
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: RTSmaniac on February 07, 2011, 01:23:42 AM
Simon the Zealot (Di)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Red/Purple • Ability: 7 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate and discard Rome and a N.T. Idol. First Strike. Protect your hand and deck from opponents' cards while this Hero remains in play. • Identifiers: NT Male Human, Disciple • Verse: Luke 6:13-15 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()

hand controls worst nightmare.
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: SomeKittens on February 07, 2011, 06:29:54 PM
As long as he stays out of boat or Pentecost
Title: Re: deck protection
Post by: The M on February 08, 2011, 10:31:06 AM
Quote from: Gabe on February 05, 2011, 01:14:42 AM
Quote from: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on February 04, 2011, 11:50:25 PM
So the elders agreed that "look" and "search" are different abilities but according to your quote they are different? What's up wit dat?  :o  :P

I don't understand your question.
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