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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Lamborghini_diablo on July 19, 2011, 02:01:22 PM

Title: Death and Hades question
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on July 19, 2011, 02:01:22 PM
I'm sure this has been pointed out before but, what exactly is up with D&H's play as?

Death & Hades (Wa)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: 8 / 8 • Class: None • Special Ability: Reduce opponent's hand to 7 cards until this character is discarded (or 9 cards if rescuer has Tables of the Law activated). • Play As: Your hand size is -1. • Identifiers: NT Male Demon • Verse: Revelation 6:8 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Rare)


(A) it doesn't even mention the "until discarded" clause.
(B) The target is wrong. It should say your opponent's hand.


Could this play as possibly get changed to say "Your Opponent's hand size is reduced by 1 until this character is discarded."
Title: Death and Hades question
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on July 19, 2011, 02:06:21 PM
Anyone have any cool ways to use this card? Sorry I put this in the wrong section; meant to go into strategies... not ruling.

EDIT: HOW DID LAMBO GET THE FIRST POST WHEN I MADE THIS THREAD@??#!@?# HACKER
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on July 19, 2011, 02:07:25 PM
EDIT: HOW DID LAMBO GET THE FIRST POST WHEN I MADE THIS THREAD@??#!@?# HACKER

Timestamps don't lie son. GG NO RE.
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: YourMathTeacher on July 19, 2011, 02:09:19 PM
I always assumed that this card was meant to reduce the number of cards in your hand at the end of your turn, but a literal reading of the SA would indicate that they can not even draw cards past 7 (or 9 with TotL).
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: WesterForever on July 19, 2011, 02:18:20 PM
Wow...that puts a whole new spin on D&H if one cannot even draw cards to gain more than 7 total cards...
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: YourMathTeacher on July 19, 2011, 02:20:54 PM
Wow...that puts a whole new spin on D&H if one cannot even draw cards to gain more than 7 total cards...

I'm pretty sure that there used to be an errata for D&H. However, this unusually erroneous Play As would have replaced it. Since that Play As is an errata, we have to rule D&H by what it says on the card until further notice.
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: ACe on July 19, 2011, 02:31:15 PM
I always thought that it was you couldnt draw past 7 at least i lost a tourney from that card once cause i always had like close to 7 and couldnt draw.
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: YourMathTeacher on July 19, 2011, 02:33:39 PM
I'm sure this has been pointed out before but, what exactly is up with D&H's play as?

Death & Hades (Wa)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: 8 / 8 • Class: None • Special Ability: Reduce opponent's hand to 7 cards until this character is discarded (or 9 cards if rescuer has Tables of the Law activated). • Play As: Your hand size is -1. • Identifiers: NT Male Demon • Verse: Revelation 6:8 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Rare)

If we use the "Play As," then you have to discard all your cards and have no hand for the entire game. You would also have to give your opponent a card from your territory.

Somehow, that "Play As" also reminds me of the OJ Simpson trial.  :o
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on July 19, 2011, 02:40:37 PM
If I did discard my entire hand, here's how it happened.

Also, the current play as would be beast for Zebby decks.
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: YourMathTeacher on July 19, 2011, 02:45:54 PM
Also, the current play as would be beast for Zebby decks.

Especially since it doesn't actually tell you to discard your hand. You bring in D&H to activate his ability, then next turn RA with Zebulun and say "My hand size is -1, per the REG."

Just make sure you wave your hand in front of your opponent and hope that they are not related to Watto.
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: Arch Angel on July 19, 2011, 03:01:49 PM
Play as: Your post ratings are -1 until deleted.
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on July 19, 2011, 03:08:16 PM
Just make sure you wave your hand in front of your opponent and hope that they are not related to Watto.

(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi189.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz18%2FLambo_Diablo_Svtt%2FDH.jpg&hash=6c7094e269375c1a8ac60f568869c7aa54aead35)
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: YourMathTeacher on July 19, 2011, 03:09:34 PM
Play as: Your post ratings are -1 until deleted.

Wow, harsh.

However, (jokes aside) there is no question that the "Play As" is an errata and is therefore not used. We have no choice but to play this card as written. As soon as the ability activates, your opponent's hand must be reduced to 7. Unless you can discard D&H, then the Hand Limit applies, just like the current overarching 16-card Hand Limit. This card overrides the 16-card limit with a 7-card (or 10-card with TotL) limit.
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: Arch Angel on July 19, 2011, 03:14:15 PM
Wow, harsh.
Wasn't meant as harsh. It was only -1% serious. That's less than 0%! (No really, it is!)
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on July 19, 2011, 03:23:51 PM
Short hair
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: SomeKittens on July 19, 2011, 03:27:11 PM
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/death-and-hades/ (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/death-and-hades/)

Yep, this has been asked before.  Nope, nothing truly conclusive came out of it regarding the play-as
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: lightningninja on July 19, 2011, 03:28:38 PM
Someone use this in type II for a big tournament and then argue whatever you want to happen until someone gives in!
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: Korunks on July 19, 2011, 04:36:16 PM
Well until they fix the obviously erroneus play as, I am going to rule it the way it is written.  I feel bad for speed decks at my tournaments. :)
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: SomeKittens on July 19, 2011, 04:44:32 PM
This really makes me wonder what whoever wrote that was thinking.
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: STAMP on July 19, 2011, 04:45:44 PM
It's a simple fix.  It should read, "Play as: Opponent's hand size is n-1 while this card is in play."
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: Minister Polarius on July 20, 2011, 09:42:49 AM
That would be errata, not play-as.
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: CountFount on July 20, 2011, 09:53:41 AM
Someone help the blind to see (or at least give me my trifocals).   ;) Does this mean that an opponent may not draw cards which exceed 7 or 9 (if that card no one uses is in play) if D&H has been activated and remains in play?
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: Minister Polarius on July 20, 2011, 09:54:53 AM
That appears to be the case as of now.
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: CountFount on July 20, 2011, 09:56:16 AM
lock thread lock thread lock thread
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: Josh on July 20, 2011, 11:39:01 AM
So then...  Band an EC (Gomer for example) to Death and Hades, then play Grapes on the banding character to shuffle D&H.  Opponent must reduce hand to 7 for remainder of game? (If I never let them discard my D&H)
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: Minister Polarius on July 20, 2011, 12:22:19 PM
I would say no. Cards do not reset when set aside or removed from the game, but they are rest when returned to deck or hand.
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: Prof Underwood on July 20, 2011, 02:05:28 PM
That Play As is one of the ones that needs an update to make it clearer. It's supposed to be interpreted as: "Your [opponent's] hand size [limits are] 1 less than [they] would normally be."
I agree with the "other Prof" (assuming that he meant to include the red parts that I added).
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: SomeKittens on July 20, 2011, 02:09:33 PM
So, would that also include the max hand size (decreased to 15?)

Also: Is this official?
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: Prof Underwood on July 20, 2011, 02:28:11 PM
So, would that also include the max hand size (decreased to 15?)

Also: Is this official?
Only if another Elder posts here backing this up :)
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: Professoralstad on July 20, 2011, 02:32:59 PM
So, would that also include the max hand size (decreased to 15?)


Possibly, but not as far as I know.

Quote
Also: Is this official?

I'd say yes for now. "Reduce opponent's hand" doesn't really have an official definition AFAIK, but it has been understood for the past 13? years since Warriors came out to mean what my suggested play as said. However, it would probably be updated to this given the new usage of restrict abilities:

"Restrict opponent from having more than 7 cards in hand (or 9 if Tables of the Law is active) at the end of each of his turns, until this character is discarded."

In any case, I can be fairly certain that at Nationals or any future tournament, D&H will not force your opponent to discard any cards above 7, nor will it stop opponents from drawing beyond 7 cards. So hopefully none of you are expecting to build decks based on that.
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: Alex_Olijar on July 20, 2011, 02:59:03 PM
In any case, I can be fairly certain that at Nationals or any future tournament, D&H will not force your opponent to discard any cards above 7, nor will it stop opponents from drawing beyond 7 cards. So hopefully none of you are expecting to build decks based on that.

People built decks based on the fact Angry mob doesn't say that the heroes are placed back face up. Someone will place this card to force the ruling.
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: Professoralstad on July 20, 2011, 03:07:49 PM
Anyone is more than welcome to do that. But there is little chance that it will work out for him/her. Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: Gabe on July 20, 2011, 03:12:06 PM
People built decks based on the fact Angry mob doesn't say that the heroes are placed back face up. Someone will place this card to force the ruling.

His name is John Earley. :)
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: TechnoEthicist on July 20, 2011, 03:20:56 PM
Yeah he tried that on me..lasted all of 5 seconds :P
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: lightningninja on July 20, 2011, 07:51:04 PM
The "play-as" is not an errata. Errata is meant to change the original ability of the card, such as A New Beginning requiring the battle to be a rescue attempt. The play as (which is obviously worthless as is because it's so terribly worded) IS a play-as once it's fixed, not an errata. It's just saying what the special ability means.
Title: Re: Death and Hades question
Post by: STAMP on July 20, 2011, 07:57:16 PM
Errata is meant to change the original ability of the card, such as A New Beginning requiring the battle to be a rescue attempt.

That's your daddy's errata.  Just like his oldsmobile, it's ancient and worthless compared to new errata.


 ;D
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