Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Bryon is saying that cards must be considered "played" when they hit the table so that you can use them then (ie. face-up artifacts) or later (ie. face-down artifacts).

Schaef is saying that cards are only being "placed" when they hit the table, and that they are "played" when they enter "play".  Therefore, putting down a face-down art would be "placing" it, but it wouldn't be "played" until you turned it face-up and "activated" it.

Are there any current rulings that would contradict either of these perspectives, or are they equally valid?

This seems to be an accurate picture of our positions (of mine at least).  Here's one way to answer your question about validity:

Artifact special ability: Opponents cannot play heroes, weapons, or artifacts this round.  May be used once.

Would you allow a player to put an artifact into his artifact pile with this active?  I would not.
If the point was to disallow activation of artifacts, we'd just call out "activate" as the key word, like Joseph's Silver Cup does.

To be frank, yes this can cause a change in the game.

Wasting Disease has now become increasingly more powerful.

Quote

Prevent all good abilities that allow a player to play an Enhancement.

Previously, it only prevented cards such as ET and Reach. Now... it stops:

ET type heroes, Reach type enhancements, Great Faith type enhancements, Elishana type heroes, I am Truth (though it did before, idk how many people realized this), Musicians Chamber, Drawn out type enhancements, AND storehouse.

My new favorite card.  Buwahahaha!   

And don't forget search-type cards that put other cards on the table.   

I don't see any problems with Wasting Disease stopping those cards.  It stops most of them already (and really should have stopped all of them all along).

For future cards, if we want to specifically stop play abilities, but allow exchange for enhancement cards, we will word the special ability like so:

"Negate band, draw, and play abilities." so that searches and exchanges are still allowed.  While Great Faith allows you to play an enhancement out of your deck, it is not specifically a "play" ability.  (Just like a "Band from hand" ability plays a hero but is not really a "play" ability).

That way, Wasting Disease stops ANY ability that allows you to play an enhancement, while the new card will only stop the specific "play" special ability.

Would you allow a player to put an artifact into his artifact pile with this active?  I would not.

Why not?  I do not think that putting my card somewhere that it's not in play and not active would violate that premise.

BTW, shuffling a card also counts as playing it under your definition.

And I'm not clear on whether you consider cards in e.g. Musician's Chambers to be played when they're used in battle or only the first time when they're placed there, but if it's the latter, then any ability that allows you to "play an Enhancement" cannot use a card stored there or similar places since you already played it once.

And removing from the game unless you force players to move removed cards somewhere off the physical surface of the table.

And despite your claim of wording "future stop play" cards as you say, the way you have defined play, that STILL stops exchanges.  You are moving a card from deck to table.  Period.

My definition of "play" doesn't worry about things like that because it involves either putting cards in play (note the correlation there... play... play...), or activating the card (actively using the card as distinct from putting it somewhere).  Locations and terminology clearly defined in the rulebook without concern for the physical nature of the playing surface or creating a list of exceptions.

So what breaks the game if I can put a card somewhere out of play without having to say I played it?  Or if I place a card without also saying I played it?

Crap.  I had Bryons other card on my mind when I wrote that... my bad.

If an ability moves a card onto the table (except in nebulous circumstances), but not discard, it is a play ability, because the definition of play is to move a card onto the table (except in nebulous circumstances).

Not so.  An exchange ability is an exchange ability, nothing more.  But it can have the effect of place, discard, or play.

Indeed!  So what we have learned from this exercise is that the question of exchange does absolutely nothing to bring us any closer to an answer on this issue, because it is applied the same in all circumstances.

There is still the unanswered question of whether you count shuffle/place somewhere in deck and remove from game abilities as "playing a card", since they are putting a card on the table without discarding them.

Under Bryon's rules, I would say yes. Under Schaef's rules, no.

Hey,

Wow...now I'm confused.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Hmm.... this thread ballooned to 7 pages in a day. I haven't kept up with it. Could someone give me the skinny on what the debate is about?

this thread didnt make sense since page 1.