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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Arch Angel on August 20, 2009, 10:35:48 PM
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So i was doing a bit of studying on on Magicians and was wondering... Should Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego count as Magicians?
Dan 2:12 Because of this the king was angry and very furious, and commanded that all the wise men of Babylon be destroyed.
Dan 2:13 So the decree went out, and the wise men were about to be killed; and they sought Daniel and his companions, to kill them.
Here it says that Daniel and friends were sought out to be killed, along with all the other "wise men"
(Hebrew word: chakkı̂ym, khak-keem' , (Chaldee); from a root corresponding to H2449; wise, that is, a Magian: - wise.}
Later in the passage...
Dan 2:48 Then the king gave Daniel high honors and many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon and chief prefect over all the wise men of Babylon.
Daniel's appointed as "Cheif of all the wise men (Magicians, Chaldeans, Astrologers, etcetc)
So yea... do Daniel and friends count as Magicians?
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I would rule magicians to be evil...So no Daniel and crew are not magicians.
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Not all Magicians are evil (in Redemption), though. (see: The Magi)
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I would rule magicians to be evil...So no Daniel and crew are not magicians.
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: Search deck for a N.T. Artifact and add it to hand. • Identifiers: NT Male Human, Magician
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I would rule magicians to be evil...So no Daniel and crew are not magicians.
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: Search deck for a N.T. Artifact and add it to hand. • Identifiers: NT Male Human, Magician
Actually, I think Daniel and his three friends were street magicians. :D
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And now, behold as we walk through fire unscathed! THE CROWD GOES WILD! Thank you thank you.... we'll be here till tuesday folks!
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Not all Magicians are evil (in Redemption), though. (see: The Magi)
What makes you think that the Magi were magicians? I dearly hope it's not because they share four letters.
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Moses was probably a magician too (not kidding).
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That's actually being debated as well. Perhaps the question is should they be considered astrologers (which is associated with magic and sorcery) or astronomers?
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Moses was probably a magician too (not kidding).
Why's that?
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Moses was probably a magician too (not kidding).
Why's that?
He knew to ask YHVH for his "true name". He also dueled magic with other magicians. There's a lot of Jewish schools of magic based off that stuff.
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OK, that's interesting, I never though of it that way
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He knew to ask YHVH for his "true name".
I think that may have arisen from the fact that Moses figured people wouldn't believe him unless he spoke in the true name of YHVH.
He also dueled magic with other magicians.
Performing signs and wonders through God's power isn't magic in my opinion. Dark magic (witchcraft and sorcery) is a tool of the enemy, not something God uses.
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I think that may have arisen from the fact that Moses figured people wouldn't believe him unless he spoke in the true name of YHVH.
No, examine the story of Osiris and Isis. To know a god's name is to be able to invoke its power. Also, I don't think the Israelites knew YHVH by anything different than the Sumerian name, if they hadn't already adopted Egyptian gods.
Performing signs and wonders through God's power isn't magic in my opinion. Dark magic (witchcraft and sorcery) is a tool of the enemy, not something God uses.
By the definition of magic (and especially by the definitions of magic of that time period), everything Moses did was "holy" magic.
There's also a fine line between "dark magic" and magic that comes (in theory) from oneself.
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By the definition of magic (and especially by the definitions of magic of that time period), everything Moses did was "holy" magic.
There's also a fine line between "dark magic" and magic that comes (in theory) from oneself.
That may be true in a sense, but I HIGHLY doubt that that definition of magic will count in Redemption.
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He knew to ask YHVH for his "true name".
I think that may have arisen from the fact that Moses figured people wouldn't believe him unless he spoke in the true name of YHVH.
He also dueled magic with other magicians.
Performing signs and wonders through God's power isn't magic in my opinion. Dark magic (witchcraft and sorcery) is a tool of the enemy, not something God uses.
if there is such a thing as 'dark' magic, isnt there the exact opposite as well? 'light' or 'holy' magic?
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I don't know...what would you consider to be the opposite of witchcraft and sorcery? I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I honestly don't know myself... ???
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well, i was thinking more in tune with what colin said about moses...
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Actually there is a pretty clear distinction here.
Magic is when a person uses supernatural powers to accomplish something of their choosing. It is when a person tries to tap into supernatural power for their own purposes. These feats give glory to the person doing them.
Miracles are when a person simply does what God tells them to do and something supernatural happens, which gives the glory to God.
When Moses turned his staff into a snake, or the Nile to blood, or made water come from a rock, all these things were simply following God's commands. No one thought that Moses had the power to do these things. God got the glory. That was not magic.
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i suppose it all depends on how you define 'magic'. not all share the same definition as you, prof.
magician, as well as 'magic', should probably be defined for redemption purposes.
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i suppose it all depends on how you define 'magic'. not all share the same definition as you, prof.
True, but wouldn't the world be a much simpler place if they did :)
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lol yes, it would be.
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Actually there is a pretty clear distinction here.
Magic is when a person uses supernatural powers to accomplish something of their choosing. It is when a person tries to tap into supernatural power for their own purposes. These feats give glory to the person doing them.
Miracles are when a person simply does what God tells them to do and something supernatural happens, which gives the glory to God.
When Moses turned his staff into a snake, or the Nile to blood, or made water come from a rock, all these things were simply following God's commands. No one thought that Moses had the power to do these things. God got the glory. That was not magic.
During that time period, magic was invoking the power of a deity.
I don't know...what would you consider to be the opposite of witchcraft and sorcery? I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I honestly don't know myself... ???
I would think that the opposite would be miracles and then there's be a middle ground of meditation and things achieved by strength of will.
By the definition of magic (and especially by the definitions of magic of that time period), everything Moses did was "holy" magic.
There's also a fine line between "dark magic" and magic that comes (in theory) from oneself.
That may be true in a sense, but I HIGHLY doubt that that definition of magic will count in Redemption.
Definitely don't think it should.
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Actually there is a pretty clear distinction here.
Magic is when a person uses supernatural powers to accomplish something of their choosing. It is when a person tries to tap into supernatural power for their own purposes. These feats give glory to the person doing them.
Miracles are when a person simply does what God tells them to do and something supernatural happens, which gives the glory to God.
When Moses turned his staff into a snake, or the Nile to blood, or made water come from a rock, all these things were simply following God's commands. No one thought that Moses had the power to do these things. God got the glory. That was not magic.
During that time period, magic was invoking the power of a deity.
This is correct, but only from other cultures (not Jewish culture). They never would have referred to God's power as magic.
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Actually there is a pretty clear distinction here.
Magic is when a person uses supernatural powers to accomplish something of their choosing. It is when a person tries to tap into supernatural power for their own purposes. These feats give glory to the person doing them.
Miracles are when a person simply does what God tells them to do and something supernatural happens, which gives the glory to God.
When Moses turned his staff into a snake, or the Nile to blood, or made water come from a rock, all these things were simply following God's commands. No one thought that Moses had the power to do these things. God got the glory. That was not magic.
During that time period, magic was invoking the power of a deity.
This is correct, but only from other cultures (not Jewish culture). They never would have referred to God's power as magic.
Well, I would say that the reason for that is philological, not intentional.
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During that time period, magic was invoking the power of a deity.
Well, since only one deity actually exists, even that definition clearly distinguishes the acts of Moses and the acts of his detractors.
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During that time period, magic was invoking the power of a deity.
Well, since only one deity actually exists, even that definition clearly distinguishes the acts of Moses and the acts of his detractors.
Actually, at that time period, Jewish culture believed that YHVH was simply the most powerful God. They did not deny the existence of other gods until sometime later. The commandment "have no other gods before me" presupposes the existence of other gods, as does the context of many pre-exilic verses. Later on, these gods were redefined to be "demons" or "fallen angel", depending on a Jew's particular theological standpoint.
However, from a Redemption standpoint, I think that would agree.
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During that time period, magic was invoking the power of a deity.
Actually, at that time period, Jewish culture believed that YHVH was simply the most powerful God.
I do not consider a college student to be an authority on exactly what the people of ancient Israel believed. Particularly a college student who doesn't even accept the accuracy of the Bible, which contains the belief system of that time period.
When God says to have "no other gods before me" He is saying that we shouldn't treat anything as a higher priority or authority than God. Just because people treat something as a god in their life, does not mean that thing is a God in reality.
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Considering neither of you have any cites for either of your thoughts, I'm going to side with the logical choice here until one of you proves otherwise.
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During that time period, magic was invoking the power of a deity.
Actually, at that time period, Jewish culture believed that YHVH was simply the most powerful God.
I do not consider a college student to be an authority on exactly what the people of ancient Israel believed. Particularly a college student who doesn't even accept the accuracy of the Bible, which contains the belief system of that time period.
When God says to have "no other gods before me" He is saying that we shouldn't treat anything as a higher priority or authority than God. Just because people treat something as a god in their life, does not mean that thing is a God in reality.
During that time period, magic was invoking the power of a deity.
Well, since only one deity actually exists, even that definition clearly distinguishes the acts of Moses and the acts of his detractors.
Actually, at that time period, Jewish culture believed that YHVH was simply the most powerful God. They did not deny the existence of other gods until sometime later. The commandment "have no other gods before me" presupposes the existence of other gods, as does the context of many pre-exilic verses. Later on, these gods were redefined to be "demons" or "fallen angel", depending on a Jew's particular theological standpoint.
However, from a Redemption standpoint, I think that would agree.
Personally neither of the above makes any amount of sense to me. Do not discriminate that he is a college student. Discriminate because he didn't cite anything. Which you didn't do either. And Magic, by my definition, requires rites or words of power or demonic contact. Moses did nothing like a rite because rites are known top long and complicated even with a staff or wand and all he did was hit a rock/ red sea. Daniel and co. was not reported ever doing magic. They were simply the smart upper class brought over to help run the kingdom. Therefore not magicians. Believe me when i say I have looked deeply into the subject of magic as I write fantasy.
yes I realize I didn't cite but this is from an accumulation of knowledge and why I have accumulated it. Try that guys.
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Josh,
That didn't make much sense either. It was also somewhat rude in an online setting. Good thing I know how your are saying it. Haha. You mean no harm.
Magic is a supernatural ability being used by a human in a way not ordained by God IMO.
2cents.
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Yeah I'm new so I haven't quite figured out how to add voice tones to text. That las t post was not trying to insult just inform. Sorry if any were offended
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again, supply a definition for 'magic' and 'magicians' in regards to redemption, and we can clear all this up.
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As magic is inherently evil when tried in reality I think that anyone who has contact, bargaining contact, with demonic entities is a magician. Herb healing not so much.
Magic would be a rite or ritual that tries to contact demons or manipulate the laws of reality with out direct order from God and his power.
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Well, I actually have studied magic (strictly for educational purposes) in a degree of depth that probably would get me in trouble to mention.
The best definition I've found of an act of "magic" (at least by the people who actually practice it) is something that has an intent, a ritual, and a result. In the case of Moses, his intent was to create water, his ritual was striking the rock, and his result was the water. There's a branch of magic based on post-modernism that utilises this broken down formula to create quick, uncomplicated rituals to get results faster.
The Christian (Roman Catholic) definition of magic is "the art of performing actions beyond the power of man with the aid of powers other than the Divine," so that's where the illusionist is coming from.
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But what is "beyond the power of man?" Lifting things without touching them and communicating with nature spirits (neither Demon nor Angel) are within the power of man, but most people would consider that witchcraft simply because almost nobody knows how to do it.
If a gymnast were to go to a village where nobody knew how to jump and did a backflip, they would think it is "magic." That's why I agree that it is important to define magic in Redemption.
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communicating with nature spirits (neither Demon nor Angel)
I foresee this thread expanding very quickly into a discussion that has nothing to do with Redemption's definition of magicians. Does that mean I'm psychic? ;)
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At least I'm remotely on topic when I be provocative :D
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communicating with nature spirits (neither Demon nor Angel) are within the power of man,
From a Christian worldview, such nature spirits would be defined as demons.
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No, from a Christian worldview, fallen angels (and/or spirits of Nephilim) are demons. Nature spirits are something else entirely.
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This was actually a serious ruling question, I wasn't trying to spark a debate on the definition oon Magician... Just would like a concrete decision for the time being (even if it will be changed soo(
do Daniel and friends count as Magicians?
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No, from a Christian worldview, fallen angels (and/or spirits of Nephilim) are demons. Nature spirits are something else entirely.
From a Christian worldview, there are only demons and angels. There are no nature spirits in a Christian worldview.
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So it would logically follow that my statement is correct. In a Christian worldview, nature spirits are not demons. They are completely absent from the modern understanding of creation.
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So it would logically follow that my statement is correct. In a Christian worldview, nature spirits are not demons. They are completely absent from the modern understanding of creation.
You can't mix paganism with Christianity.
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Tell that to Dante and every Scholastic thinker since him.
And it's not about mixing anything with anything else. It's not an idea because there's a name for it, it has a name for it because it's factual or an idea.
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Tell that to Dante and every Scholastic thinker since him.
And it's not about mixing anything with anything else. It's not an idea because there's a name for it, it has a name for it because it's factual or an idea.
That logic made absolutely no sense. There's also no such thing as nature spirits.
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Tell that to Dante and every Scholastic thinker since him.
And it's not about mixing anything with anything else. It's not an idea because there's a name for it, it has a name for it because it's factual or an idea.
Dante and other Scholastic thinkers are not God. I'll trust God's word over the word of humans any day.
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Me too. Unfortunately, the Holy Scriptures don't say anything on the subject.
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Me too. Unfortunately, the Holy Scriptures don't say anything on the subject.
Fortunately, reason tells us that nature spirits don't exist.
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Did Polarius and Colin switch accounts?
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Me too. Unfortunately, the Holy Scriptures don't say anything on the subject.
Fortunately, reason tells us that nature spirits don't exist.
Unfortunately, the kind of reason you are talking about is woefully inadequate.
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Me too. Unfortunately, the Holy Scriptures don't say anything on the subject.
Fortunately, reason tells us that nature spirits don't exist.
Unfortunately, the kind of reason you are talking about is woefully inadequate.
To a schizophrenic, nature spirits exist. In the commonly accepted form of reality, they do not.
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"Commonly accepted" is ambiguous and subjective. In the commonly accepted form of Greek reality, lightning was Zeus getting angry and geometry was magic.
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in videogames, lightning = makes all the other karts little, geometry = geometry wars. :)
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in videogames, lightning = makes all the other karts little, geometry = geometry wars. :)
no Lightning Damages Jedi!
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in videogames, lightning = makes all the other karts little, geometry = geometry wars. :)
no Lightning Damages Jedi!
Only ones without lightsabers ;)
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in videogames, lightning = makes all the other karts little, geometry = geometry wars. :)
no Lightning Damages Jedi!
Only ones without lightsabers ;)
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages3.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fdarth%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2Fa%2Fa6%2FYodaCatch-hd.jpg%2F245px-YodaCatch-hd.jpg&hash=a3150ef59efed756d5b8d3d55faf3f937562aa64) Right you are not.
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in videogames, lightning = makes all the other karts little, geometry = geometry wars. :)
no Lightning Damages Jedi!
Only ones without lightsabers ;)
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages3.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fdarth%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2Fa%2Fa6%2FYodaCatch-hd.jpg%2F245px-YodaCatch-hd.jpg&hash=a3150ef59efed756d5b8d3d55faf3f937562aa64) Right you are not.
That's more an exception than a rule, methinks. Another like Yoda, there is not.
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"Commonly accepted" is ambiguous and subjective. In the commonly accepted form of Greek reality, lightning was Zeus getting angry and geometry was magic.
That was correct by their cultural mythology. You claim is not correct within a Christian mythology. To go off pure subjective experience would be pure solipsistry (and linguistically counter-intuitive). To rational sane people, the phenomenon of "nature spirits" does not appear. Since there is no scientific grounds for positing the existence of nature spirits as unseen (by observation of some effect of their presence), logic concludes that nature spirits do not exist.
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http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=17571 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=17571)
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And here we are sports fans at the bottom of the thread with oh no's on second and whogivesacrap up to the plate. This could be it folks..heres the reasoning behind the thread- he swings..and a miss. Al this post seems to be going nowhere. Here comes the final post of the evening..and its gone! I cant belive it. This thread is out a here. Thats another one in the history books folks!
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That was correct by their cultural mythology. You claim is not correct within a Christian mythology. To go off pure subjective experience would be pure solipsistry (and linguistically counter-intuitive). To rational sane people, the phenomenon of "nature spirits" does not appear. Since there is no scientific grounds for positing the existence of nature spirits as unseen (by observation of some effect of their presence), logic concludes that nature spirits do not exist.
Spirits are outside the realm of science by definition, so it doesn't even make sense that you would bring that up. Many "rational, sane people" believe that there is no God, or say that they do. You have made no argument that holds any water logically, and you're the one who is attempting to argue in favor of logic.
To make sure the point is made:
-What "rational, sane people" do or do not experience is not for you to say. You can only say what you do or do not experience. Your first point is completely void.
-Spirits are outside the natural, which is all science can deal with by definition. Your second point is completely void.
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Enough