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I know this was brought up a short while ago, but I just want to make sure the Elders are discussing what happens when a Good Weapon encounters Covenant with Death. Personally I think the best ruling would be it's SA doesn't activate, simple as pie.

Logically I disagree with this, but as far as gameplay and the current definition of "play" I have to agree that the special ability would not activate.

When I asked Prof U on this, he said it wouldn't negate the effect but it would keep you from placing it on a WC Hero, but I have also heard counterdicting statements on this, and I'm not sure if Gabe came to a conclusion on it at Nats...

I agree with Pol and ProfA, good weapons do not activate in battle when DD or CoD is active.

...I'm not sure if Gabe came to a conclusion on it at Nats...

I did. Admittedly, at Nationals, I didn't remember the answer off the top of my head and needed to look at the OFFICIAL New Rulings Announcement Thread where ProfU reposted the announcement I made when we came to a conclusion on the definition of "play". I did look it up and read the correct ruling to whomever asked for it. Here's what it says:

Clarification for Definition of "Play"
-You play an enhancement by attempting to activate its special ability (or numbers in battle)
-You play a character or multicolor site by putting it in your territory or your side of the battle.
-You play any other card type by putting it face up on the playing surface from hand, deck, or discard pile due to your special ability or game action, except when you discard a card from hand.

The first sentence describes how Enhancements (including weapon class enhancements) are played, that is when their special ability activates in battle. They are not played when you place them on a warrior class character during your preparation or discard phase.

The Elders had a 156 post discussion over the course of about 9 months to iron this out. I don't expect we will be doing that again anytime soon.

ah, right.

So is the Weapon delayed or all-out negated?

Quote from: adotson85 on August 21, 2012, 03:44:01 PM

Logically I disagree with this, but as far as gameplay and the current definition of "play" I have to agree that the special ability would not activate.

What's your logical disagreement out of curiosity?

I guess it is kind of like the "defeat" argument. The redemption definition is just different than what you would the think the word "play" means. Logically, I would consider a card played when it is put into the field of play, whether it be in territory or battle. I'm not arguing the ruling, just pointing out why their has been so much disagreement/confusion on this ruling.

Quote from: megamanlan on August 21, 2012, 09:49:56 PM

So is the Weapon delayed or all-out negated?

They are not delayed or negated, they are restricted from activating.

@ProfU Does this mean that Weapons are delayed or completely Negated and have stats of 0/0?

Wouldn't that be more confusing then just saying that both the numbers and effect are treated as not ever played or that both are delayed until after the block?

Quote from: Professoralstad on August 21, 2012, 11:23:28 PM

What I am more sure of is that the weapon's special ability will never activate if CwD is active.

Wouldn't it function similar as if it was negated, then later the negate was negated?  If it is instantaneous, like Sword of Punishment, it wouldn't happen, but if it is ongoing, like when Spear and Shield is worth 3/7, it would work?

The problem is that it never activates.  The rule on weapons say that, when on a WC character that enters battle, it activates then, in the declared order of abilities.  If it cannot activate at that moment, then there is no other time it is allowed to activate.  Even if it was ongoing, the SA never became active, because it was not able to at the time that it was allowed to activate.

Allowing any sort of "delayed reaction" type ruling would require further tinkering with the definitions of "play" and/or "restrict," which have already been painstakingly crafted to accommodate a host of factors.

Its not really a negate, the card just can't be activated. Although I don't like the idea of cards being played unless they come from hand, deck or discard pile (or in principle removed from the game, except for the fact that it is, well, removed from the game)

But I am more happy that we have a definition than I am annoyed that I would prefer a different definition.

Although I don't like the idea of cards being played unless they come from hand, deck or discard pile

It's definitely a strange, convoluted definition. However, for once I don't oppose it for being so. I was around when it was being hashed out, and the reason it is what it is is because all other possible definitions had a major gameplay problem associated with them. It's a bit nuanced, but believe me when I say what we have is the simplest possible definition of "play."

It's really the same thing. I look at it the same way.

You may look at it the same way, but restrict is not the same as Negate any more than instead is the same as negate or protect is the same as negate. Stopping an ability from working does not a negate make.

Again, you may be looking at it that way, but that's not what it is. It doesn't function at all like a negate.

No, it isn't.

Yes, it doesn't function as a negate but it's accomplishing the same result.

No, it really isn't the same as negate.  Negate either undoes an ability or prevents it from activating.  It is subject to being stopped by CB- on cards.  Restrict on CwD does not do the undoing part, and it cannot be affected by any CB- on cards.  So you can't say that the restrict is a negate, as that does not accurately define what is going on.

CwD does not prevent/undo like a negate.  It restricts the ability from ever activating.  And that is a difference.

(Which also makes me question the definition of Restrict since its supposed to be on players not on cards)

A restrict ability keeps a player from performing an action that they would normally be allowed to perform.

A restrict ability reduces the number of game action choices available to a player.

All restrict abilities are ongoing. A restrict ability targets the player that becomes restricted.

Restrict abilities last for one round.

The phrases “player may not”, "no player may" and "no ability card may be played" mean the same as “restrict”.

just putting it out there

Quote

(Which also makes me question the definition of Restrict since its supposed to be on players not on cards)

A restrict ability keeps a player from performing an action that they would normally be allowed to perform.

A restrict ability reduces the number of game action choices available to a player.

All restrict abilities are ongoing. A restrict ability targets the player that becomes restricted.

Restrict abilities last for one round.

The phrases “player may not”, "no player may" and "no ability card may be played" mean the same as “restrict”.

just putting it out there

I know... Its just that this is not following the rules of Restrict.

Incorrect, the definition of 'play' when referring to weapons is the action of the weapon entering battle on the WC-character, so restrict can still apply in this case, as the weapon is still being 'played' by the player, per the definition of weapons.  The rules on restrict are being applied correctly.

The weapon doesn't work. You misunderstood what he was saying.

I was around when it was being hashed out, and the reason it is what it is is because all other possible definitions had a major gameplay problem associated with them.

If you don't mind doing the work to show what those were, then I'd really like to see those problems.  Mostly because of curiousity and because I like seeing the development process. 

Sometimes, and only sometimes, it's better to just trust that we elders know what we're doing. 

But seriously, as Gabe pointed out earlier in the thread, the discussion we had regarding "play" was over 150 posts long...and it wasn't as if we all posted 150 congratulations after solving the issues in the first few posts...

There are only three kinds of threads for me: threads I don't read at all, threads I read every post of, and political threads where I skip the 10 pages of "yeah huh! nuh uh!"