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neutral or evil?

Both.  They are evil because they retain the curse type (as I found out when I looked up the ruling on it, as I thought they lost the evil part), while also neutral because they are artifacts.

Played as an evil enhancement they lose the neutral part of their alignment, because they are no longer artifacts.

EDIT: Actually, found the new ruling.  Its odd, because Covs/Curses can do follow DAE rules for the most part, but the last line in the ruling makes it weird since "they are still always targetable as a Covenant/Curse," would imply that, even as the neutral card type artifact, they are still also a card type that is good or evil once played.  I think this is an odd ruling, but it would mean covs/curses played as artifacts are both neutral and good/evil, and ones played as enhancements are just good or evil.


from ProfA

That quote is from me, not ProfA.  Here is the ruling from ProfA

Rob has officially ruled that Covenants/Curses are treated similar to DAEs:

"A Covenant/Curse is both an Enhancement and an Artifact, and can be targeted as either (in hand, deck, or discard pile) until it is played, held, activated, or placed in Artifact pile as one or the other. A Covenant/Curse that is played or held as an Enhancement can no longer be targeted as an Artifact, and a Covenant/Curse that is activated or placed in the Artifact pile can no longer be targeted as an Enhancement. They are still always targetable as a Covenant/Curse."

This ruling will be posted in an REG update thread, and now that the REG can be updated more easily, it will be added to the REG in the next update.

It's not that the Covenant and Curse card types have alignments, they just signify the way to play the cards (as an enhancement or an artifact). The alignments come from the respective other card types that they embody (artifact and HE/EE). Much like DAE is only a card type that tells you how to play the card (as either a HE or an EE) not an alignment in itself.

I disagree, but I don't think we have a definitive ruling on this part of curses/covenants ever stated, so the only way I can see it being so would be a ruling from an elder.

ok im gonna chime in here a curse in teh artifact pile is always evil card just like a dae played by a evil character becomes evil etc or good if played by a good character the fact of using it as an artifact does not negate the fact that its a curse which is inherintly evil. its just a method of use. besides not ebing to target played curses as evil would be just stupid.

i know you can search for them, like they are enhancements, when in deck. (Gabriel can discard en EE out of deck). I believe it is the same for discard pile too. 

Wellllll..........

I do NOT think that it means that a curse in the artifact pile is both evil AND neutral.  I don't think it is possible for a card to have multiple alignments, therefore I think the above ruling is the better way to choose to see things.  I understand why some people might have been confused though, so thanks for bringing this to people's attention.

I think he means in artifact pile.

Actually I meant in play.  I agree that a DAE is both good and evil in the draw/discard pile, or hand.  However once it enters play, it has to become only one or the other.

If I had to rule on this today, I would say that a curse in an artifact pile is only evil (not neutral), and a covenant in the artifact pile is only good (not neutral).

As I argued last time this came up, and I'll argue it again. Neutral should not be a third alignment. Nothing in the game would change if Neutral were simply the lack of an alignment (you may have to reword a few abilities) cards could still be targeted as "Neutral" cards, but it would get rid of this idea that cards can be "Good" or "Evil" and "Neutral" which seems silly to me.

Basically I'm saying Neutral is a lack of alignment as opposed to a third alignment.

Quote from: theselfevident on May 31, 2013, 07:42:29 PM


 as stated here by ProfA

Quote

EDIT: Actually, found the new ruling.  Its odd, because Covs/Curses can do follow DAE rules for the most part, but the last line in the ruling makes it weird since "they are still always targetable as a Covenant/Curse," would imply that, even as the neutral card type artifact, they are still also a card type that is good or evil once played.  I think this is an odd ruling, but it would mean covs/curses played as artifacts are both neutral and good/evil, and ones played as enhancements are just good or evil.

Stop saying ProfA said things he didn't say.  I said that.

As for what you said from Gabe, the ruling is quite clear that their brigade is not "in play," when they are played as arts.

Quote from: theselfevident on June 02, 2013, 01:49:42 PM

Quote from: theselfevident on May 31, 2013, 07:42:29 PM


 as stated here by ProfA

Quote

EDIT: Actually, found the new ruling.  Its odd, because Covs/Curses can do follow DAE rules for the most part, but the last line in the ruling makes it weird since "they are still always targetable as a Covenant/Curse," would imply that, even as the neutral card type artifact, they are still also a card type that is good or evil once played.  I think this is an odd ruling, but it would mean covs/curses played as artifacts are both neutral and good/evil, and ones played as enhancements are just good or evil.

Stop saying ProfA said things he didn't say.  I said that.

As for what you said from Gabe, the ruling is quite clear that their brigade is not "in play," when they are played as arts.

It was on a thread that Prof A had posted on and it was credited to Prof A as posting it. If you said it, must have been quoted from you posting by Prof A, however it did not look like it was a quote. My apologies.

I resurrected the discussion about covenants/curses on the elder's board. Thus far everyone is in agreement with ProfU's statement.

Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 02, 2013, 01:50:26 PM

If I had to rule on this today, I would say that a curse in an artifact pile is only evil (not neutral), and a covenant in the artifact pile is only good (not neutral).

To be clear, curses/covenants keep their alignment when played as artifacts? And they keep their brigade as "in play"?

I don't think they are neutral in deck, they just aren't an artifact or an enhancement. However, they are good or evil.

No they can be targeted as both an artifact and an enhancement while in deck.

Quote from: Praeceps on June 02, 2013, 02:23:17 PM

Quote from: theselfevident on June 02, 2013, 02:17:33 PM

I don't think they are neutral in deck, they just aren't an artifact or an enhancement. However, they are good or evil.

No they can be targeted as both an artifact and an enhancement while in deck.

I stand corrected, thank you Praeceps. I still think curses/covenants can be targeted as evil/good in deck/hand.

We know they can be target as even/good in deck/hand because they can be targeted as curses, enhancements or artifacts.

Quote from: theselfevident on June 02, 2013, 02:26:35 PM

Quote from: Praeceps on June 02, 2013, 02:23:17 PM

Quote from: theselfevident on June 02, 2013, 02:17:33 PM

I don't think they are neutral in deck, they just aren't an artifact or an enhancement. However, they are good or evil.

No they can be targeted as both an artifact and an enhancement while in deck.

I stand corrected, thank you Praeceps. I still think curses/covenants can be targeted as evil/good in deck/hand.

We know they can be target as even/good in deck/hand because they can be targeted as curses, enhancements or artifacts.

I am confused now, are you saying they are or are not neutral?

As Gabe said, this could change as a result of the discussion on the other side, buy my current understanding is that:

Card type      Location                         Alignment     Targetable as:
Covenants     Deck, Discard, & Hand    Good            Art, Cov, Enh, "good card", or "X brigade card"
                    Artifact Pile                    Good            Art, Cov, "good card", or "X brigade card"
                    Storehouse & Battle        Good            Cov or Enh, "good card", or "X brigade card"
Curses          Deck, Discard, & Hand    Evil               Art, Cov, Enh, "evil card", or "X brigade card"
                    Artifact Pile                    Evil               Art, Cov, "evil card", or "X brigade card"
                    Storehouse & Battle        Evil               Cov, Enh, "evil card", or "X brigade card"
DAE              Deck, Discard,
                    Storehouse & Hand         Good & Evil    Enh, "good card", "evil card", or "X brigade card"
                    In play due to GC           Good             Enh, "good card", or "X brigade card"
                    In play due to EC            Evil               Enh, "evil card", or "X brigade card"

As Gabe said, this could change as a result of the discussion on the other side, buy my current understanding is that:

Card type      Location                         Alignment     Targetable as:
Covenants     Deck, Discard, & Hand    Good            Art, Cov, Enh, "good card", or "X brigade card"
                    Artifact Pile                    Good            Art, Cov, "good card", or "X brigade card"
                    Storehouse & Battle        Good            Cov or Enh, "good card", or "X brigade card"
Curses          Deck, Discard, & Hand    Evil               Art, Cov, Enh, "evil card", or "X brigade card"
                    Artifact Pile                    Evil               Art, Cov, "evil card", or "X brigade card"
                    Storehouse & Battle        Evil               Cov, Enh, "evil card", or "X brigade card"
DAE              Deck, Discard,
                    Storehouse & Hand         Good & Evil    Enh, "good card", "evil card", or "X brigade card"
                    In play due to GC           Good             Enh, "good card", or "X brigade card"
                    In play due to EC            Evil               Enh, "evil card", or "X brigade card"

Just to make the chart a little better (so hopefully it doesn't confuse anyone, especially newer players), for DAE cards, it should have "X brigade card," and "Y brigade card," as its targetables, since it has two brigades, and it loses one of its brigades when played.

"More like DAEs" and "treated the same as DAEs" are two different things and it would have been nice if the original change was more specific. As it stands, if Covs/Curses were treated the same as DAEs (the original wording) they wouldn't be good/evil or have brigades if played as artifacts. That's what seems to make the most sense to me (and is the most consistent overall between card types).

QFT.  Curses and Covenants being treated as DAEs is what led me to believe that once a Cov/Curse is played as either an EE or Art, it no longer has any of the attributes of the type it wasn't used as (except that it is targetable as a covenant or curse).  So it would seem that Covenant with Death as an artifact could negate Simeon (Di) or Seraph, since it would be a neutral card. 

DAEs lose one of their alignments completely once they are used.  And if there was ever a card that targeted "dual-alignment enhancements", I think it could target a DAE played for either alignment.  I think Cov/Curses should follow the same logic - the only identifier they should share as an EE or an Art is that they are a "Cov/Curse".

I had always played that the brigade on a curse are in play and count toward The Lord Fights For You, Two Bears, etc when counting or looking for brigades. However, I was told recently that the brigade is not "in play" when used as a curse. I don't know what thread it is from.

Can someone set the record straight for me?

Kirk

Quote from: jmhartz on June 03, 2013, 10:39:04 PM

So it would seem that Covenant with Death as an artifact could negate Simeon (Di) or Seraph, since it would be a neutral card. 

I just finished saying that Covenants/Curses were NOT neutral cards.

Quote from: Captain Kirk on June 03, 2013, 11:57:44 PM

I had always played that the brigade on a curse are in play and count toward The Lord Fights For You, Two Bears, etc when counting or looking for brigades. However, I was told recently that the brigade is not "in play" when used as a curse.

My understanding is the same as Gabe's, that Pithom is still able to see "gold" curses, therefore brigades are still in play.

Based on your answers, the rule that Curses/Covenants should be treated the same as DAE's should be altered or removed, because the way you elders are ruling it in this thread treats them like they are not the same.  Either they completely lose their other attributes or they don't. 

I think the idea of comparing Curses/Covenants to DAEs was primarily referring to their status when out of play.  We were trying to explain why you can search for them in deck/discard pile/hand as either enhancements OR artifacts in addition to curses/covenants.  Really that was the only change in rulings that occurred at the time the comparison first became popular.

Adding some more clarity to that comparison is probably a good idea

These are the rules for Covenants and Curses as found in the REG. Can you please show me where it says they are treated the same as DAEs?

I believe it was something posted in a thread, not something in the rules. I can't seem to find it right now, though.

Thanks Gabe.