Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Xonathan on May 12, 2016, 12:56:09 PM
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Could one of his brigades also be teal? The bible mentions him wearing the linen ephod and he was the tabernacle priest at Shiloh.
I think it will make the new samuel even more playable.
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Could one of his brigades also be teal? The bible mentions him wearing the linen ephod and he was the tabernacle priest at Shiloh.
I think it will make the new samuel even more playable.
found this, it might help shed some light on this subject
http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=522 (http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=522)
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Amazing catch. It would definitely appear Samuel was a Tabernacle Priest.
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The REG entry for Priest says, "In Redemption, a priest is a character that was referred to as a priest in the Bible or in Church tradition."
Samuel was raised as a priest and acted as one, offering sacrifices, but the closest verse I could find in the Bible in which Samuel was referred to as a priest is Psalm 99:6 (which Ironisaac's article quoted):
"Moses and Aaron were among His priests, And Samuel was among those who called on His name; They called upon the LORD and He answered them." (NASB)
"Moses and Aaron were among his priests, Samuel also was among those who called upon his name. They called to the LORD, and he answered them." (ESV)
The crazy thing is...by the REG definition and using this verse, MOSES would be a priest too!! :o
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urim and edicts for everyone!!
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Wow, good point. That's pretty incontrovertable. *EDITED comment by Removal*
* EDIT from Soul Seeker: You may disagree with our Elders but please refrain from insulting them.
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Pol,
Let's be a little careful with tone please.
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I do wonder what are the thought processes behind choosing brigades for certain characters. For example, The new Joshua has the identifier prophet but is not a green brigade character.
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As to what determines brigades, it's not quite just the identifiers. Characters with multiple roles tend to get the brigades most strongly associated with them. For a while, everyone who uttered a single line of prophecy in the Bible was given Green, but now we've kind of figured it out. There's no hard-and-fast rule that I'm aware of (for example, Moses gets White even though he didn't even have the musician identifier for a long time), but for the most part the brigades now seem to be based on the most well-known parts of that person's life.
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FTR, the concept of Samuel being a priest (and teal) was discussed during the development of the 2011 tins. Obviously the decision at that time was that Samuel is not a priest. I don't recall the reasoning and don't have time to dig it up right now.
It's possible that new evidence has been turned up here. This topic is interesting but not a high priority. I'll look into it deeper when time allows. I'm certain the elders will discuss it again. Most likely in consideration for the post Nationals REG release.
The present day ruling is that Samuel is not a priest.
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I often agree with what you are saying but the way you say it is often very confrontational and dismissive of others. Being right doesn't give you the right to act in these ways.
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If the Bible outright and in no uncertain terms says "Moses and Aaron were my priests," do we really have to wait until after Nationals to add the identifier?
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Can Samuel be an "implied priest" lol
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But I will raise up for Myself a faithful priest who will do according to what is in My heart and in My soul; and I will build him an enduring house, and he will walk before My anointed always.
1 Samuel 2:35 NASB
I believe this is a prophecy given from a Man of God to Eli concerning Samuel.
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If the Bible explicitly says a character is a Priest, it's frustrating that there even needs to be a process before adding the identifier.
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I can understand that but we can be civil in discussing these things.
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Sure, but I feel being civil doesn't produce any change.*
*Edited post by Soul Seeker to convey the thought without the perceived sarcasm.
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Thank you sir
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If the Bible explicitly says a character is a Priest, it's stupid that there even needs to be a process before adding the identifier.
For cards before and without identifiers, that is the process
Oh and not to mention salvation! ::)
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Good point. If I were hosting a tournament and a player came up and pointed me to a place in the Bible with a standard translation that explicitly said Moses was 500 feet tall and from the Paleolithic era, I'd have to rule him as a Plesiosaur from that point on.
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Pol I agree with you on the moses issue, however as Paul says in Romans "if it is possible as far as it depends on you live at peace with everyone." It is certainly possible for you to make your points without antagonizing other board members.
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I have to disagree with Pol here. While Redemption is based on the bible, that does not necessarily mean that cards gain identifiers they were not printed with, especially before a team of elders/game rule people decide the card as such. It's a card game and has its own rules.
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Tried that, doesn't work. You may not have been around for a decade of bringing up rulings problems or discrepancies (which hive finally since been rectified, so they were indeed real problems and discrepancies), being told the elders were actively discussing the problem and would give a ruling soon, only to bring it up again a year later and find that there had actually been no discussion at all and the elders had forgotten about it. Anyone who's met me in person will back me up that I'm about the most pleasant, mellow person you could hope to meet. But I care about this amazing game too much to stop my unending crusade for its improvement just so a couple people won't be mildly put off by my tone.
@Daniel, that actually is the rule, or at least it was in older rules documents. If the Bible explicitly says something is or is not and Redemption contradicts it, unless there is some vaguery or nuance somewhere, the Bible is more authoritative. For example, Samuel is somewhat vague if you don't know anything about Greek and Hebrew writing conventions, but Moses and Aaron are incontrovertible. Moses being a Musician was in debate for a long time, not because it was in question whether he composed a song, but because we hadn't made up our minds as to whether one recorded composition a Musician makes. However, it has never been in question that Melchizedek is a priest or David is a King or anything else of the like because the Bible explicitly says so. No difference here for Moses and Aaron, and while Samuel is obvious too if you know the slightest bit about how that sentence structure operates in the language it was written in, it is not quite explicit.
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The nature of this game and its leadership tends to be on the conservative/precautious side most of the time. You can view that as a bad thing (as I have in the past), or you can view it as the reason Redemption has lasted as long as it has.
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I am relating a set of circumstances that you weren't around to witness.
I view conservatism as a good thing, bureaucracy as a bad thing, and obstructionism a bad thing. It is not conservative to immediately oppose any change whatsoever to the status quo, which is what most of the elders used to do. Furthermore, even conservatism is a bad thing when there is no opposition attempting change.
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I am relating a set of circumstances that you weren't around to witness.
Just so you know I've been on the boards close to a decade, and on the ezboards.
I view conservatism as a good thing, bureaucracy as a bad thing, and obstructionism a bad thing. It is not conservative to immediately oppose any change whatsoever to the status quo, which is what most of the elders used to do. Furthermore, even conservatism is a bad thing when there is no opposition attempting change.
Calling the Redemption leadership a "bureaucracy" is excessive when there are 10? or so people making decisions. And yes, opposing change is quite literally the essence of conservatism.
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Yeah but in all due honesty, you said you don't even play the game..
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Yeah but in all due honesty, you said you don't even play the game..
Correct, I don't anymore. I was just saying that I've definitely "witnessed" what Pol is talking about, and I'm often 100% on his side as well, I should add.
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Sorry, yours and Drrek's names are so similar I confused my address, although having been around 2/3 as long as I have, you should remember how quickly things get done when we're being patient and nice.
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Anyone who's met me in person will back me up that I'm about the most pleasant, mellow person you could hope to meet.
Interesting dichotomy... does it only apply to this Message Board, or all of your online activity? ;)
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If the Bible explicitly says something is or is not and Redemption contradicts it, unless there is some vaguery or nuance somewhere, the Bible is more authoritative.
Pol, Redemption is a game. As a game it draws inspiration from Scripture, but Scripture is not binding on the game.
To Xonathon's original question, it is worth noting that wearing a linen ephod does not make one a priest.
Now David was clothed in a robe of fine linen, as were all the Levites who were carrying the ark, and as were the musicians, and Kenaniah, who was in charge of the singing of the choirs. David also wore a linen ephod.
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Ephod - a sleeveless garment worn by Jewish priests. According to Exodus, the high priests.
Urim and Thummim for everyone!! :-)
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Well guys I talked to my mom and she says David is a priest king, but not a priest. Moses is not a priest. Samuel is not a priest. Sorry to shatter hopes and dreams lol
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Well guys I talked to my mom and she says David is a priest king, but not a priest. Moses is not a priest. Samuel is not a priest. Sorry to shatter hopes and dreams lol
How was david a priest, but not a priest?
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How was david a priest, but not a priest?
To quote Bryon:
"Captured characters" are not characters. Don't treat them as such.
Also, road apples are not apples, cow pies are not pies, and peanuts are not nuts (botanically, anyway).
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Well, that clears everything up lol :P
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It seems that the definition of a priest in Redemption in the REG may just need to be more specific. According to Exodus 19:6, 1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 1:6, Revelation 5:10, and Revelation 20:6, all of God's covenant people are priests - but this of course is in the sense of how we are intermediaries (ministers/bridges/ambassadors/peacemakers/etc) between God and people (which Jesus is in the fullest as the great High Priest), which is what the priestly function was and is all about.
Of course, although we have the card Priests of Christ to represent this, in Redemption priests are (almost exclusively) intended to be people who were from the tribe of Levi and whose full-time (life) occupation was as a priest (offering sacrifices and performing other priestly duties) at a tabernacle or temple. I say almost exclusively because Melchizedek in Genesis 14 we clearly regard as a priest but he lived before any tabernacle or temple. As Hebrews 7-10 details, he was a prophetic picture of Jesus in being High Priest, King (of Salem, the precursor of Jerusalem, no less!!) and acting as God (receiving a tithe from Abraham) to show the Messiah would be all of these (how awesome!).
Given all of this, I'm not sure what the best definition would be- I'm sure the elders will figure it out though as they are very capable! If it's just that a person is referred to as a priest then Samuel and Moses would have to be included, although they weren't really priests in the sense of the tabernacle and temple priests. They were priests in the sense of being an intermediary between God and man. As a boy, Samuel was raised in the tabernacle by Eli the priest and so if there was a card just for him as a child then maybe it could be a priest card, but when he was an adult his time was primarily occupied by being a prophet and judge of the nation. He traveled in a circuit around Israel doing this, instead of remaining in the tabernacle as a full-time priest would.
And if a priest is just someone who acted as a priest, then you would have to include guys who offered a priestly sacrifice but weren't supposed to like King Saul and King Uzziah, as well as King David, who wore the linen ephod and lived a life of prayer & intercession as the priests did out of his devotion for God. But these guys were kings primarily - not priests primarily in terms of their "job" (David certainly was a priest in the spiritual sense as Moses and Melchizedek were).
It seems pretty difficult to get a definition down, even though we all know for the most part what is meant by someone being a priest!!
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Samson spent almost all of his life whoring or imprisoned in Philistian, not judging. Or does a Judge just have to be called a Judge while a Priest has stricter requirements? If so, those requirements need to be tightened *before* disallowing Moses to definitely, and Samuel to likely be a Priest. Moses was a Levite who performed sacrifices and interceded on behalf oh his people and is directly called a priest in the same breath as Aaron.
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Samuel was a Levite through his father, a descendant of Korah. He did make fequent sacrifices and even built an altar in his home so he can make them close by. While a lot of emphasis seems to be place on him being judge of Israel, he never stopped being a priest or doing priestly duties in doing so. Samuel is just so very unique in that he fulfills so may roles and I think that it should be respected that him being a priest is one of them.
I tried to find respected sources outside the bible to confirm what Im saying. Encyclopedia.com confirms the he took over as High Priest and judge after Eli. Jewishencyclopedia.com also states that he was a priest in the bible and confirmed in rabbinical writings. There are numerous blogs and church websites that all say he was a priest and in fact I haven't come across a single website that says otherwise.
If the arguement is that Redemption doesn't have to adhere to the Bible in all decisions that is okay but Redemption doesn't define who people were in the Bible either.
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Just wanted to point out that Psalm 99:6 can't be used as evidence for Samuel being a priest if you look at Psalm 99 as a whole. It's a Psalm praising God for His greatness and His power. It gives Jacob, Moses, Aaron, and Samuel as examples that support the Psalmist's thesis. The Psalmist doesn't actually say that Samuel is a priest; he says instead that Samuel called on God's name.
If the REG defines a priest as someone who was called a priest in the Bible, then something other than Psalm 99:6 will have to be used as evidence for Samuel.
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Knowledge of sentence structure is important. It actually does explicitly say Samuel was a Priest, just not in a way recognizable in English to someone who only knows English. Fortunately, Samuel being a Priest or not is not central to the message of salvation and redemption, as is always the case when you find things in the bible that need more-than-surface knowledge to understand.
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Enough with the condescension, wow.
For the Record, it has been addressed through editing. - soul seeker :police:
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I mention a specific scenario over and over again, people say it won't happen, it happens, I point out that I had been talking about it all along, and now I'm condescending.
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Samuel is somewhat vague if you don't know anything about Greek and Hebrew writing conventions
Samuel is obvious too if you know the slightest bit about how that sentence structure operates in the language it was written in
It actually does explicitly say Samuel was a Priest, just not in a way recognizable in English to someone who only knows English
You've said the same thing 3 times, and yet not explained why it is the way you say it is. Should people just take your word for it? Personally, I'm not happy with just being told something "is" because it "is"; I want to know why.
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Pretty much, unless they want to learn about it on their own. You're free to find out why, the keyword is "Hebrew and Greek parallel structure." My philosophy is, if you don't want to learn about it, don't be mad at me for talking about it or expect me to take the time to explain it to you when you won't believe that anyway.
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Honestly Pol, I'm astonished at this point that you think people don't take you seriously because you haven't been aggressive, condescending and dismissive enough, when really those qualities are the exact reasons I find it easy not to care about your opinion.
For the Record, it has been addressed through editing. - soul seeker :police:
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As Gabe mentioned yesterday the present ruling is that Samuel and Moses are not considered "Priests" in the game of Redemption.
Could this change? Absolutely. Are we going to make a snap decision? No. Myself and at least one other Elder (that I know of, there could be others) have already done some research (using articles and commentaries) and we will be sharing our findings to make a well-reasoned decision as a team.
We both appreciate and encourage people to ask questions and point things out as Xonathan did in the OP. But please understand that we prefer to vet these things as a team. I understand Pol's comments about how things took a long time to resolve in the past--many times discussions were held but no resolution came about--and that was a failure on our part. That being said, we have greatly improved our communication and processes, and the only reason we would put off discussing a change is because we all agree it would not be immediately implemented even if a change did occur. Many times it is not just a potential change that needs to be considered but also the timing of the potential change.
As for this thread, we welcome any additional resources or insights people wish to provide on this topic.
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My philosophy is, if you don't want to learn about it, don't be mad at me for talking about it or expect me to take the time to explain it to you when you won't believe that anyway.
I do want to learn about it. That was the purpose of my last post.
And I'm not mad at you either. I figured I could learn this "Hebrew and Greek parallel structure" thing better if you explained than compared to me Googling it.
So I Googled it, and the first link explains it as such:
"A common literary feature of Hebrew poetry in the Old Testament is called parallelism, in which the words of two or more lines of text are directly related in some way... Recognizing parallelism as a poetic feature can sometimes aid in understanding or interpreting a passage. For example, the use of parallelism usually means that the message of the text is in the larger passage and its overall point or impact rather than individual words or single lines."
Based on the bolded portion above, and considering what Psalm 99 was written about, I am now even more convinced that Psalm 99:6 is not evidence of Samuel being a priest, and it looks to me like the argument could be made that it isn't evidence of Moses being a priest either. Psalm 99:6 is not about who are God's priests; it's listing examples of people that called on God's name, and He answered them, thus supporting the Psalmist's overall theme of God's power and greatness in Psalm 99.
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Would you have preferred I told you it meant something else, as I have learned?
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Since I've been mentioned by name a few times here, I'll post here to say that I have not given a previous opinion on the priesthood evidence being given here, and would love to discuss it more with the other Judges before coming to any decision. We've had some similar evidence used to bolster an existing argument for an identifier before, so I would most certainly not dismiss that out-of-hand. It remains to be seen whether it could be used on its own, and the context would need to be examined, but it is certainly worth researching.
Beyond that, the tone in here needs to come down considerably, from all involved please. Many of the concerns and attacks here should instead be the "Report" button on a post, or kept in PM.
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I have edited this thread so the discussion can still continue while taking out the more controversial wording and tone while attempting to maintain the poster's main thought.
I have not locked it because...
1) I believe the community can discuss & share their points of view peacefully.
2) We are all human and passionately believe in our ideals...sometimes that is not easily conveyed in text.
3) We are all human and struggle with the flesh, I try to air on the side of grace in these instances.
4) Some good can still come from this thread.
Finally, I would like to leave you with these words as this thread moves forward: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." -- Jesus (from John 13:34-35)
:police:
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It's really great to have you back around. :)
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It's really great to have you back around. :)
Thanks for the kind words. I've been lurking for a long time, but it is nice for my life to start settling down again. The last year and a half has been one of the hardest times of my life.
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Sorry to hear that but glad things are settling down. If you need prayer or want to share anything, feel free to PM me.
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Sorry to hear that but glad things are settling down. If you need prayer or want to share anything, feel free to PM me.
Agreed, for sure
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Based on our research we have not found sufficient evidence to call Moses or Samuel a priest.
With the number of different translations available for the Bible we have to look to the original language to determine meaning. The passage quoted from Psalm 99:6 that is sometimes translated in english as "priest" does not mean priest in the original hebrew. It is also translated as "chiefs" or "principal ministers".
The REG definition of who qualifies as a priest currently says:
In Redemption, a priest is a character that was referred to as a priest in the Bible or in Church tradition.
While some church tradition does consider Samuel or Moses or both as priests, it is not something that is widely agreed upon. Our general practice is not to adopt standards that are not accepted by the vast majority of church traditions since we desire our game to be accessible to the widest audience possible.
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We thank you and the entire elder team for listening to our concerns, seriously considering them, and responding to them.
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Infinite downvotes. Legaleese defeats common sense once again, but at least this is a fairly insignificant loss.