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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: SirNobody on September 08, 2010, 01:57:47 PM

Title: Covenant with Levi
Post by: SirNobody on September 08, 2010, 01:57:47 PM
Hey,

Covenant with Levi - "Your Priests have access to all Sites.  If your Priest rescues a Lost Soul from a Site, you may place an Evil Character or Enhancement beneath owner’s draw pile."

Can I place a good enhancement beneath owner's draw pile with this?  Or does "Evil" apply to both "Character" and "Enhancement"?

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: hi123 on September 08, 2010, 02:58:17 PM
Hey,

Covenant with Levi - "Your Priests have access to all Sites.  If your Priest rescues a Lost Soul from a Site, you may place an Evil Character or Enhancement beneath owner’s draw pile."

Can I place a good enhancement beneath owner's draw pile with this?  Or does "Evil" apply to both "Character" and "Enhancement"?

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
My opinion~ You can place a good enhancement beneath the deck. It does not say that it has to be evil. ~


~ Hi123
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: Professoralstad on September 08, 2010, 03:42:38 PM
I think that Samson's Sacrifice and similar cards have similar wording: "If used by a judge, negate and discard one O.T. evil Fortress or occupied Site in play to discard all cards in battle and all human Evil Characters in opponent’s territory." In my experience, that has usually been read as being able to discard an OT Evil Fortress or any occupied Site (NT or OT). I suppose it could be read as an OT Evil Fortress or OT occupied Site, but I think it is more likely that it is meant for any occupied Site.

That said, I would say you can put a good enhancement beneath owner's draw pile with CwL.
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: Red Dragon Thorn on September 08, 2010, 04:54:36 PM
I've been playing it as any enhancement (good or evil) for a long time.
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: Minister Polarius on September 08, 2010, 11:26:57 PM
Is there any real practical use for this? All I can think of is burying an Enhancement in Storehouse or Musician's Chamber.
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: Red Dragon Thorn on September 08, 2010, 11:31:16 PM
It matters depending on the following question:

When do enhancements in battle get discarded? Before or after the soul is given? If after, then I can use Cov of Levi to recur my battle winners forever.
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: Minister Polarius on September 08, 2010, 11:52:36 PM
I don't think other abilities can insert themselves during resolution. That was the answer I got when I asked about Lay Down your Life.
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: RTSmaniac on September 09, 2010, 12:11:16 AM
heres the real question (sarcasm) can it be abused no matter what the card says or the rules dictate...then no! (end sarcasm)
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: Master_Chi on September 09, 2010, 09:03:21 AM
My opinion is that the "Evil" identifier applies to both Character and Enhancement. In the Prof's case of Samson's Sacrifice, there is no such thing as an OT Evil occupied Site, so it stands to reason that (using this line of logic) it could potentially be any Enhancement, good or evil. I would lean more towards the card was intended to place evil enhancements beneath deck, but what do I know?
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on September 09, 2010, 10:09:33 AM
My opinion is that the "Evil" identifier applies to both Character and Enhancement. In the Prof's case of Samson's Sacrifice, there is no such thing as an OT Evil occupied Site, so it stands to reason that (using this line of logic) it could potentially be any Enhancement, good or evil. I would lean more towards the card was intended to place evil enhancements beneath deck, but what do I know?

That's what I got out of it. It all goes back to grammar. If it said place an evil character or an enhancement beneath deck than yeah it would be good or evil, but it says an evil character or ehancement which means that the evil is referring to both
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: browarod on September 09, 2010, 03:55:46 PM
My opinion is that the "Evil" identifier applies to both Character and Enhancement. In the Prof's case of Samson's Sacrifice, there is no such thing as an OT Evil occupied Site, so it stands to reason that (using this line of logic) it could potentially be any Enhancement, good or evil. I would lean more towards the card was intended to place evil enhancements beneath deck, but what do I know?

That's what I got out of it. It all goes back to grammar. If it said place an evil character or an enhancement beneath deck than yeah it would be good or evil, but it says an evil character or ehancement which means that the evil is referring to both
Grammatically speaking, the or could go either way as it currently is written. I can say I have a black bag and book and mean either black bag and black book or black bag and nondescript book. It sounds weird if I mean the latter, but they are both grammatically correct meanings for what I said.
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: Master_Chi on September 09, 2010, 05:33:36 PM
My opinion is that the "Evil" identifier applies to both Character and Enhancement. In the Prof's case of Samson's Sacrifice, there is no such thing as an OT Evil occupied Site, so it stands to reason that (using this line of logic) it could potentially be any Enhancement, good or evil. I would lean more towards the card was intended to place evil enhancements beneath deck, but what do I know?

That's what I got out of it. It all goes back to grammar. If it said place an evil character or an enhancement beneath deck than yeah it would be good or evil, but it says an evil character or ehancement which means that the evil is referring to both
Grammatically speaking, the or could go either way as it currently is written. I can say I have a black bag and book and mean either black bag and black book or black bag and nondescript book. It sounds weird if I mean the latter, but they are both grammatically correct meanings for what I said.

As a general rule of thumb, a describing word (correct word fails me currently) goes with both of the items mentioned. But, then again, I'm not an (English) elder.
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: YourMathTeacher on September 09, 2010, 05:58:50 PM
As a general rule of thumb, a describing word (correct word fails me currently) goes with both of the items mentioned. But, then again, I'm not an (English) elder.

Is "English" a describing word? Could you be a French elder?
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: Master_Chi on September 09, 2010, 06:20:19 PM
Yes it is. And yes you could. If you were of French origin, or if you were a veteran of the French language. It's like Jedi Master and Sith Lord.
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: The M on September 09, 2010, 06:47:24 PM
except not. we should get some sort of proofreading staff from some big-name company to help us decide.
i say that you play it as whatever is convinient at the time.
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: Master_Chi on September 09, 2010, 06:48:29 PM
except not. we should get some sort of proofreading staff from some big-name company to help us decide.
i say that you play it as whatever is convinient at the time.

Like me and Backward Shadow.  :D
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: Bryon on September 13, 2010, 02:06:29 PM
My opinion is that the "Evil" identifier applies to both Character and Enhancement. In the Prof's case of Samson's Sacrifice, there is no such thing as an OT Evil occupied Site, so it stands to reason that (using this line of logic) it could potentially be any Enhancement, good or evil. I would lean more towards the card was intended to place evil enhancements beneath deck, but what do I know?

That's what I got out of it. It all goes back to grammar. If it said place an evil character or an enhancement beneath deck than yeah it would be good or evil, but it says an evil character or ehancement which means that the evil is referring to both
These guys both got what was intended by the wording.  Browarod is correct that it could be interpreted either way, tough. 

This is one of the side effects of trying to keep special abilities short.  And keeping the special abilities short is a side effect of writing special abilities over the picture on the card.  :)
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: DDiceRC on September 13, 2010, 02:42:28 PM
Is there any real practical use for this? All I can think of is burying an Enhancement in Storehouse or Musician's Chamber.
How about getting rid of "placed" enhancements in territories?
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: YourMathTeacher on September 13, 2010, 03:14:07 PM
Is there any real practical use for this? All I can think of is burying an Enhancement in Storehouse or Musician's Chamber.
How about getting rid of "placed" enhancements in territories?

I think Polarius was referring to good enhancements, since that was the real question being posed. There are not many placed enhancements that are good. Another example would be an enhancement on Table of Showbread.
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: Bryon on September 13, 2010, 03:41:00 PM
Lifting the Curse
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: YourMathTeacher on September 13, 2010, 04:06:33 PM
Lifting the Curse

Must be nice to have Disciples cards....  :P
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: Minister Polarius on September 13, 2010, 08:03:24 PM
I've yet to see Lifting the Curse played. Still, if this card were allowed to return Good cards, all it would affect is Storehouse, Musician's Chamber, a UU/NU White card, a NU Purple card (Asa's Good Reign), and Enhancements placed by UU/NU placers (Sent to Serve etc. and Elishana etc.).
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: browarod on September 13, 2010, 09:31:42 PM
I've yet to see Lifting the Curse played. Still, if this card were allowed to return Good cards, all it would affect is Storehouse, Musician's Chamber, a UU/NU White card, a NU Purple card (Asa's Good Reign), and Enhancements placed by UU/NU placers (Sent to Serve etc. and Elishana etc.).
Um, UUNU?
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: Professoralstad on September 13, 2010, 09:38:26 PM
I'm guessing UU = Underused, and NU = Not used.
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: browarod on September 13, 2010, 09:39:37 PM
I'm guessing UU = Underused, and NU = Not used.
He could have just said that, lol. Abbreviations are only shorter/faster when people know what they mean. :P
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: Master KChief on September 13, 2010, 09:39:55 PM
i hate all these new acronyms when there has been no established precedent.
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: Minister Polarius on September 13, 2010, 10:15:43 PM
OU, UU, and NU are standard acronyms in many games (especially Pokemon). They're intuitive enough that the good Professor got exactly what they mean, and anyone else would too if they thought about it and used context instead of just seeing something they didn't already know and giving up.

And now, precedent set, point moot, everybody dance :D
Title: Re: Covenant with Levi
Post by: joeycauldron on September 13, 2010, 11:18:23 PM
wouldn't covenant with levi go into discard pile? So is it saying you can take enhancements from your discard pile and put them under your deck?  ???
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