Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: YourMathTeacher on May 29, 2010, 10:07:21 PM
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If my lone gold hero is about to be captured with Unholy Writ, can I play Covenant of Moses as an enhancement to negate it?
Covenant with Moses
Type: Covenant • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: 7 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: Use as an enhancement or an Artifact. Burial Shroud, Unholy Writ, Thirty Pieces of Silver, and Household Idols are negated for one round. May be used twice. • Identifiers: OT • Verse: Exodus 19:5-6 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Rare)
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Interesting question, but I think initiative is only established in battle by characters or enhancements in battle. It is not established/transferred by any use of Artifacts. At least that is my gut feeling, but this REG quote if applied more liberally than usual could possibly back up the idea:
A player with initiative may play the next enhancement. Initiative is always given to the player who is losing the current battle. The losing player cannot pass initiative.
The question is, is the player whose hero is being captured by Unholy Writ losing the current battle? I would guess so. I can't say anything for certain now though, until someone can provide further evidence one way or the other.
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Hm...I can't seem to find anything in the REG that says this doesn't work...although the REG is not exceptionally clear about "special initiative" as far as I can see.
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The rulebook only says this:
Redemption® Rulebook > Situation Descriptions > Losing the Battle > Losing by Removal because of a Special Ability
A Hero is losing by removal if the Hero is being captured, discarded, returned to territory, or otherwise removed from battle by an opposing special ability. You have initiative, but you may only play an enhancement that has an “interrupt” or “negate” special ability.
This only says "by an opposing special ability," which Unholy Writ would be. However, the question of initiative is relevant to a situation like this in general.
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But you wouldn't be able to negate it since when that ability goes through, it's in the discard pile...
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But you wouldn't be able to negate it since when that ability goes through, it's in the discard pile...
I am trying to stop the capture, which happens before the discard.
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bingo. +1 Otherwise you could never negate anything, since you'd always be in another location..
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Interesting question, but I think initiative is only established in battle by characters or enhancements in battle. It is not established/transferred by any use of Artifacts.
Is this really true? What if I had two heroes in battle who were winning. My opponent now has initiative, but uses Unholy Writ to capture one of my heroes. I am now losing the battle. Does my opponent still have initiative?
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Interesting question, but I think initiative is only established in battle by characters or enhancements in battle. It is not established/transferred by any use of Artifacts.
Is this really true? What if I had two heroes in battle who were winning. My opponent now has initiative, but uses Unholy Writ to capture one of my heroes. I am now losing the battle. Does my opponent still have initiative?
No, because the Evil Character is winning due to its abilities. I can see where my wording would cause confusion; I can't really think of a better way to say it at the moment. Essentially, I was trying to say that I believe that the 'special initiative' that allows you to interrupt you being removed from battle only applies in situations where characters or enhancements are involved. I'd say you have an argument based on the vagueness of the rulebook and REG in regard to this situation, but it just doesn't seem right to me.
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So...... now I just wait for another Elder to comment? ;)
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Unholy Writ errata (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24.0) - If a human hero is in battle, you may discard this card to capture that hero.
Exhausted artifacts are discarded immediately and cannot be negated
If using Unholy Writ to capture your Hero causes you to be in a losing situation then I do believe that you have initiative to play any interrupt or negate card. For example, you could still play Jehoiada's Strength to add additional Heroes to battle. But because of the game rule pertaining to Artifacts that have been used up you would not be able to negate Unholy Writ with Covenant with Moses.
Once active, Unholy Writ cannot be negated so you can't play any interrupt/negate cards because of the transfer of initiative.
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Unholy Writ errata (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24.0) - If a human hero is in battle, you may discard this card to capture that hero.
Exhausted artifacts are discarded immediately and cannot be negated
For example, you could still play Jehoiada's Strength to add additional Heroes to battle.
That wouldn't work because interrupt the battle interrupts the last in enhancement and ongoing SA on characters only.
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That wouldn't work because interrupt the battle interrupts the last in enhancement and ongoing SA on characters only.
A Hero is losing by removal if the Hero is being captured, discarded, returned to territory, or otherwise removed from battle by an opposing special ability. You have initiative, but you may only play an enhancement that has an “interrupt” or “negate” special ability.
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Wait, now I am confused. That quote is not a universal acceptance, is it? I could not play Unified Kingdom in that case, just because it says "interrupt" in the special ability, could I? I would think you would have to be able to interrupt the removal (which you just said I can't) or interrupt the battle (which Hobbit demonstrated that you can't).
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I would say the discard of the artifact should take place after the capture has been completed, which would be after a negate would be normally used. Since it says
Play As: When holder chooses, capture a human Hero during battle. Discard Artifact after one use.
If it said: "Discard this card to..." then I would say it would already be in the discard pile so it would be unnegatable.
Just my thoughts
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If it said: "Discard this card to..." then I would say it would already be in the discard pile so it would be unnegatable.
Unholy Writ errata (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24.0) - If a human hero is in battle, you may discard this card to capture that hero.
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Once active, Unholy Writ cannot be negated so you can't play any interrupt/negate cards because of the transfer of initiative.
I hate to still nitpick, but did you mean "Once used" rather than "Once active?" Unholy Writ can still be prevented or DoN'd prior to its use.
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I hate to still nitpick, but did you mean "Once used" rather than "Once active?" Unholy Writ can still be prevented or DoN'd prior to its use.
Correct on all counts. You can stop it in advance, you just can't do anything about it once it's been discarded to capture the Hero.
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I didn't realize it was errataed, then I think its uninteruptable