Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: yirgogo on August 25, 2014, 11:55:06 AM
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What happens when Grapes of Wrath is used on a side battle?
Do curses and covenants like Covenant with Death and Isaiah's scroll if activated as artifacts count as the brigades they are if they are enhancements? I know that they can be targeted as good/evil, but to be able to target them as a good/evil brigade when active as an artifact is not logical to me.
I think that an evil card with a neutral brigade is more logical to me, since it cannot be targeted as an enhancement, but if the brigade is part of the enhancement than it should not be targeted as a good/evil brigade.
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Grapes in a side battle does everything it normally does except it does not allow the start of a new rescue attempt because there is no "current rescuer" (since it would be an evil vs evil side battle).
Curses and Covenants still have their brigades when activated as Artifacts--I don't have a link to the ruling offhand, but I remember looking this up not too long ago.
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Grapes makes sense.
The brigades I don't completely get, and do the numbers matter if it is a curse? Both the numbers and brigade identify an enhancement, but having numbers on an artifact don't make sense, but could if the brigade of the artifact matters.
like a card that says discard all good/evil cards with toughness less than X.
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I agree that it has a brigade in deck and discard pile, but where is the precedent for having a brigade while in play? A curse is an evil card, but where does the brigade come into play if it is an artifact and in play?
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I agree that it has a brigade in deck and discard pile, but where is the precedent for having a brigade while in play? A curse is an evil card, but where does the brigade come into play if it is an artifact and in play?
The precedent is Covenant Breakers' ability. It refers to a matching brigade to a Covenant. Sure, it doesn't necessarily make sense for Artifacts to have brigades, but it also wouldn't necessarily make sense for a card that clearly has a brigade to no longer have it (excepting via a Convert SA).
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The precedent is Covenant Breakers' ability. It refers to a matching brigade to a Covenant. Sure, it doesn't necessarily make sense for Artifacts to have brigades, but it also wouldn't necessarily make sense for a card that clearly has a brigade to no longer have it (excepting via a Convert SA).
And yet it makes sense for a card that clearly has the artifact icon to no longer have that? I think it's a hairy situation either way. :P
Is Covenant Breakers the only card that targets a Covenant/Curse by brigade after it's in play? Because I feel it's inconsistent for them to keep some aspects of being enhancements when activated as artifacts but then not keep their artifact aspects as enhancements.
EDIT: I suppose the real question here is, do Covenants/Curses actually lose their artifact/enhancement status once played as the other? The REG simply states that they "cannot be targeted" as the other card type, which most people that I've played with take to mean it loses that card type, but for cards like Covenant Breakers it seems to contradict that general thinking.
On the other hand, if a card cannot be targeted as an enhancement, wouldn't that include the brigade? So how does Covenant Breakers target the covenant's brigade for the optional negate?
*might be overthinking this*
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Why wouldn't it make sense for Covenants (or Curses) to have brigades, and Curses need to have brigades for the 2 cards (Pithom and Damascus) that hold a specific brigade of Curse (one of them just came out in The Early Church), but why should a card ever lose its brigade (except by a special ability like Convert)? Covenants and Curses may be artifacts (which are brigadeless) when they are played, but they are always Covenants or Curses, and Covenants and Curses have brigades.
There is enough precedent to not change the brigadedness of Covenants and Curses, even if it's just three cards right now.
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Thank you, I had forgotten about Pithom and didn't remember that about Damascus (I'm still trying to learn all the new cards).
I'm not saying that we should change precedent, or that Covs/Curses shouldn't have brigades, just that what they keep at different times seems inconsistent to me at this point.
If the brigades of Covs/Curses are part of their Covenant/Curse nature as you suggest (and not part of their enhancement halves, which is where they are printed on the card), I'd prefer that to be clarified in the definitions of the card type. That seems to be the way they are being treated right now, but having that set in stone within the rules/REG would be beneficial, imo.
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There's also Two Bears which can shuffle in Curses.
Grapes in a side battle does everything it normally does except it does not allow the start of a new rescue attempt because there is no "current rescuer" (since it would be an evil vs evil side battle).
Would there be a "current rescuer" even if it was a good vs good side battle (say I picked a Hero with Image of Jealousy placed on it)?
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I feel like it doesn't matter what type of side battle it is, there is never a current rescuer since side battles are always battle challenges so Grapes wouldn't allow another battle if played in any type of side battle.
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There's also Two Bears which can shuffle in Curses.
While Two Bears can shuffle curses, that is simply because they are ruled as brigaded evil cards, but that doesn't mean that Two Bears is a good reason why it is a brigaded evil card. While Covenant Breakers, Pithom (P) and Damascus (TEC) all require Covenants or Curses to have brigades.
Of course the ruling on Two Bears being able to shuffle curses essentially confirms that the current ruling is that Covenants and Curses do have brigades when played as an artifact.