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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: uthminister [BR] on May 28, 2011, 01:15:28 PM
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Here is the current definition
"Disciples
Several Redemption® cards contain special abilities that refer to cards that refer to “one of Jesus’ 12 disciples.” The following cards refer to cards that refer to a disciple:
• Bartholomew (Di), Fishing Boat (Di), Hospitality of Martha (Wo), Ordained as a Disciple (P), and Sent Two by Two (Di)
This includes the following disciple cards:
• Andrew (Ap), Bartholomew (Di), Bartholomew (Nathaniel) (Ap), James Son of Alphaeus (Ap), James, Son of Alphaeus (Di), James, Son of Zebedee (Ap), James, son of Zebedee (H), John (H), John (P), John (Pr), Judas Iscariot (BL), Judas Iscariot (BU), Judas Iscariot (L), Judas Iscariot (Pi), Judas Iscariot (UL), Matthew (Levi) (Ap), Matthew (Di), Peter (Ap), Philip (Ap), Philip (Di), Simon the Zealot (Ap), Simon the Zealot (Di), Thaddaeus (Ap), Thaddeus (Di), Thomas (Ap), and Thomas (Di)"
My contention is that both Matthias and Paul should be considered Disciples as well...
Matthias' case is based on Acts 1:12-26...
12 Then the apostles returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day’s walk[c] from the city. 13 When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14 They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.
15 In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16 and said, “Brothers and sisters,[d] the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus. 17 He was one of our number and shared in our ministry.”
18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:
“‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’[e]
and,
“‘May another take his place of leadership.’[f]
21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”
23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.
Paul's case is based on Galatians 1:11-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:3-8...
11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.
&
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
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I think the Bible specifically states that there were twelve disciples of Jesus and I think that's what we're going for so I'd say not but I suppose if you can convince enough other people.
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Matthias was a disciple, but not Paul though.
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The are good arguments to include both Paul and Matthias in a list of Disciples, however for Redemption purposes we only count the 12 Jesus chose at the start of his earthly ministry.
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The are good arguments to include both Paul and Matthias in a list of Disciples, however for Redemption purposes we only count the 12 Jesus chose at the start of his earthly ministry.
+1
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The only flaw with that reasoning is that Jesus (as God) actually chose Matthias to replace Judas before his earthly ministry according to Peter's interpretation of the scriptures he quotes. The text refers to Judas' replacement foretold before Jesus' earthly ministry ever began. Twelve disciples were chosen and one wolf in sheeps clothing was chosen. If anything, Judas should not be considered a disciple for game play purposes and Matthias should or maybe we should just add Matthias. It also says that Matthias was with Jesus from the beginning of his ministry so he was around Jesus as much as the 12.
Matthias (Ap)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: 7 / 7 • Class: None • Special Ability: None • Identifiers: NT Male Human • Verse: Acts 1:24-26 • Availability: Apostles booster packs (Common)
He would probably not be added to many Disciples decks because he has no special ability and adds a third color. I would personally try it and see what I could do with gold being added into the mix.
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Hospitality of Martha says the Martha may band to any of the 12, she can't band to judas so who's the twelfth?
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Hospitality of Martha says the Martha may band to any of the 12, she can't band to judas so who's the twelfth?
Converted Judas.
I agree Matthias should be but not Paul, he was just a prophet of Jesus.
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Hospitality of Martha says the Martha may band to any of the 12, she can't band to judas so who's the twelfth?
Converted Judas.
I agree Matthias should be but not Paul, he was just a prophet of Jesus.
He should
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I agree Matthias should be but not Paul, he was just a prophet of Jesus.
He should
He Really Should
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I agree he should be considered a disciple.
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http://www.gotquestions.org/Matthias-Judas-Paul.html (http://www.gotquestions.org/Matthias-Judas-Paul.html)
The disciples knew that whoever was to replace Judas had to be a firsthand witness of the entire ministry of Jesus, just as they were (Acts 1:21-22)
Personally, I think Matthias should qualify, as he was the spiritual successor to the position. Converting Judas can be tricky, and adding a 7/7 Gold Hero with no SA (unless Matthias has been reprinted as of late? It's possible that my knowledge of any cards post-2008 is limited...) probably won't break the game.
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http://www.gotquestions.org/Matthias-Judas-Paul.html (http://www.gotquestions.org/Matthias-Judas-Paul.html)
The disciples knew that whoever was to replace Judas had to be a firsthand witness of the entire ministry of Jesus, just as they were (Acts 1:21-22)
Personally, I think Matthias should qualify, as he was the spiritual successor to the position. Converting Judas can be tricky, and adding a 7/7 Gold Hero with no SA (unless Matthias has been reprinted as of late? It's possible that my knowledge of any cards post-2008 is limited...) probably won't break the game.
Orange... Alstad... Lives?!?!!!
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See...Matthias has already performed a healing miracle...Orange Alstad has risen. I would say that verifies that he was with Jesus as his disciple... ;D
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Simple Answer:
NO! THAD NEEDS LESS POWER, NOT MORE!
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Paul was an apostle, NOT a disciple.
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The apostles WERE the disciples as Redemption misleadingly terms it.(The disciples numbered in the hundreds. The apostles? Twelve. Paul was the true replacement of Judas. Matthias should count though.)
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You answered the question yourself. Redemption states that the disciples for game purposes are those who traveled with Jesus during his life and ministry. This includes 12 people. If a card referencing Apostles were to be made, it would have to include Paul IMO.
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Matthias also qualifies for that since he was with Jesus and the others since the beginning of Jesus' earthly ministry. He followed in the background, until Judas' demise led to him being brought to the forefront throught the wisdom of the Word and by the leading of the Spirit. Unless Matthias is getting a reprint, I believe he should receive an identifier as a disciple. That's my 2 cents.
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We know what happened to the other disciples(how they died) and what they did after Pentecost. But what did Matthias do? I would agree that he should be added,but first can anybody tell us anything 'bout his ministry? My :2cents:
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It is my understanding that the word Disciple is akin to "student of," from which we gain the word 'discipline.' Yes, Paul was a "student of" Jesus, but he was not with the 12 throughout Jesus's ministry. In fact, he came into the picture afterwards. The 12 chosen were direct students of Christ who basically laid the foundations of Christianity, and studied directly under Jesus. Matthais was specifically chosen to replace Judas, and the Bible only mentions 12 "chosen" in specific context. While Paul was separately chosen by Jesus to play a major role in the foundation of Christianity, he was not chosen as 1 of the original 12. Hence, he still has awesome abilities in Redemption.
In short, Matthias definitely, Paul no, based on the context of the scriptures and how the abilities of the 12 work in Redemption. IMO, it wouldn't make sense.
Carry On,
-C_S
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The apostles WERE the disciples as Redemption misleadingly terms it.(The disciples numbered in the hundreds. The apostles? Twelve. Paul was the true replacement of Judas. Matthias should count though.)
Paul and Barnabas were apostles (Acts 14:12)
James the brother of Jesus was an apostle (Galatians 1:19)
Jesus was an apostle (Hebrews 3:1)
And after looking at some Greek the word translated as apostle essentially means Messenger
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I have a feeling that this is being discussed "behind closed doors" right now. When the PTB have a concensus on this issue, can we get a ruling within the week please? I am wanting to playtest and see if it is even feasible to add Matthias to a disciples deck. I am already quite certain that Paul is not even being considered because of how OP'd it would be to include him. Thanks!
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At the regionals in IA Gabe told me that Matthias is NOT a disciple, in redemption terms that is.
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He's not, but he should be (imo of course).
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That is correct...CURENTLY. Wanting to see if the case has been made here to add him as the 12th good disciple.
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I've definitely seen people post about this before, and the result has always been that he's not one, and will not become one. This is interesting when you consider that the vast majority of people in these threads think he should be.
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If we make a Purple Judas, then this point is moot. :-*
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That would be cool too! Either reprint one or the other in purple or red.
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Just make Judas purple brigade hero. He was one of the twelve and if he hadn't turned Jesus over he doesn't get crucified, the world isn't saved and all of Christianity is irrelevant. Plus Jesus practically told him to do it.
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I think Paul is powerful enough already and to make him a disciple would just make him a power house. What new advantage does it have to make him a disciple?
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The apostles WERE the disciples as Redemption misleadingly terms it.(The disciples numbered in the hundreds. The apostles? Twelve. Paul was the true replacement of Judas. Matthias should count though.)
There is no scriptural evidence of Paul being a disciple.
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Matthias :priest:
The real question is why should Matthias NOT be a Disciple :o
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There is not really a biblical reason for Matthias to NOT be one.
I say he should be counted as a disciple.
The one reason why I would say he shouldn't be one is because Thad-the-Mad would only get stronger
(heaven forbid that happens).
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True, but how often does someone playing Disciples get and keep all eleven good one's out right now. I think that Redemption gameplay should represent the reality of the Sctiptures as closely as it can. Judas should not be considered a disciple any longer and Matthias should. Judas removed himself and God filled that vacancy with Matthias.
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Judas is a disciple no matter what. Just because he was no longer is a disciple does not mean he was not ever a disciple.
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I think that Redemption gameplay should represent the reality of the Sctiptures as closely as it can. J
Why? This is just a card game, Think about what you what to do here you would like to add one more person to fishing boat, now your opponet can draw 12 cards. Do we what to do that?
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Yep! 8)
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I think that Redemption gameplay should represent the reality of the Sctiptures as closely as it can. J
Why? This is just a card game, Think about what you what to do here you would like to add one more person to fishing boat, now your opponet can draw 12 cards. Do we what to do that?
I agree with Uthminister, even though sometimes the Bible can make cards a little OP'd doesn't mean that a game based on the Bible shouldn't copy it. But of course we aren't going to make a "God" card or a "Jesus" card because those would give the game a knife in the heart, not saying that God or Jesus would ever do that but in game terms.
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I think that Redemption gameplay should represent the reality of the Sctiptures as closely as it can. J
Why? This is just a card game, Think about what you what to do here you would like to add one more person to fishing boat, now your opponet can draw 12 cards. Do we what to do that?
I agree with Uthminister, even though sometimes the Bible can make cards a little OP'd doesn't mean that a game based on the Bible shouldn't copy it. But of course we aren't going to make a "God" card or a "Jesus" card because those would give the game a knife in the heart, not saying that God or Jesus would ever do that but in game terms.
Son of God........
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I think that Redemption gameplay should represent the reality of the Sctiptures as closely as it can. J
Why? This is just a card game, Think about what you what to do here you would like to add one more person to fishing boat, now your opponet can draw 12 cards. Do we what to do that?
I agree with Uthminister, even though sometimes the Bible can make cards a little OP'd doesn't mean that a game based on the Bible shouldn't copy it.
Umm... Yes it dose. If the Bible makes a card or combo OP'd then for game play purposes we should not make it Biblically accurate. Just like I think that rulings should not be made on theology alone, but on what is good for the game, play experience and theology
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I agree with you Soundman. I really don't think this will break the game though. It would make the disciples deck suceptible to more cards because it would contain three brigades which seems to be the magic number with lost soul and evil abilities.
Any word from the PTB? Elders? Playtesters? Rob? (My birthday is in July so maybe you can get me a disciples identifyer for Matthias.)
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We decided on the definition of "Jesus' 12 Disciples" a long time ago with the knowledge of Matthias and Paul. The characters mentioned in Luke 6:13-16 are the only ones that meet Redemptions definition.
I'm sorry to inform you that this isn't being discussed any further by the elders.
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We decided on the definition of "Jesus' 12 Disciples" a long time ago with the knowledge of Matthias and Paul. The characters mentioned in Luke 6:13-16 are the only ones that meet Redemptions definition.
I'm sorry to inform you that this isn't being discussed any further by the elders.
I'd still like to know why that is though. If that's the decision that you guys have made, then fine, I understand having to find a balance between game play and being Biblically accurate. However, Matthias was specifically chosen to replace Judas. I feel like a better answer than, "because this is what we decided" is needed to justify distinctly going against the Bible (albeit for a relatively trivial issue).
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A few things:
First, Matthias is never referred to as a Disciple. The following 4 verses are the only mentions of him in the Bible. He is said to be numbered among the Apostles, but as has been pointed out, Apostle=/=Disciple:
23And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Second, Matthias was never mentioned in the Gospels, was not with Jesus at the Last supper, in the fishing boat, and was never specifically called by Jesus. Since we may someday have Disciple-specific cards regarding these several events, we will have to specify all Disciples except Matthias, otherwise we have more Biblical inaccuracy.
Third, if we were to use a broader definition of Disciple than just "the twelve guys who followed Jesus during his earthly ministry" what's to stop us from saying that a Disciple is anyone who followed Jesus? That would include almost any NT Hero, and that would just be a bit much.
It's not "against the Bible" to define Disciples however we'd like (as long as their is a clear, logical delineation) for gameplay reasons, just like its not "against the Bible" for us to say that the Magi were not Magicians, and that Ananias and Sapphira were not Heretics. We could have had perfectly logical reasons for taking the opposite stance on any of those, but we didn't.
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That works. So will we see any cards that refer to Apostles specifically? Thanks for the explanation.
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That works. So will we see any cards that refer to Apostles specifically? Thanks for the explanation.
Possibly someday, and if such cards are made, then I am certain that Matthias and Paul will definitely be included in that identifier.