Author Topic: Converted Salome (Read 4695 times)

YourMathTeacher · « **on:** March 22, 2010, 07:52:55 PM »

A converted Salome can still discard a captured hero (since captured heroes are not heroes), right?

Salome
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Gold • Ability: 6 / 6 • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard a captured Hero or the top card of opponent’s deck. If it is a Lost Soul, put it in play instead. May band to Herodias or a Herod. Cannot be negated if Herodias is in play. • Attributes: Royalty • Identifiers: NT Female Human, Royalty • Verse: Mark 6:25 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs ()

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 22, 2010, 08:21:30 PM »

Yes, her SA converts.

The big question is whether she can take advantage of The Garden Tomb.

STAMP · « **Reply #2 on:** March 22, 2010, 08:56:21 PM »

I wouldn't think she could discard a captured hero but could discard the top card of opponent's deck.

And a bigger question is how many put Salome on their Garden Salad.

Tracer Burnout · « **Reply #3 on:** March 22, 2010, 09:08:08 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on March 22, 2010, 08:56:21 PM

I wouldn't think she could discard a captured hero but could discard the top card of opponent's deck.

And a bigger question is how many put Salome on their Garden Salad.

Now that is clever. Good job Stamp!!

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #4 on:** March 22, 2010, 09:13:06 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on March 22, 2010, 08:56:21 PM

I wouldn't think she could discard a captured hero but could discard the top card of opponent's deck.

Why not? Discarding a captured hero does not target a hero, since captured heroes are not heroes.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #5 on:** March 22, 2010, 11:09:54 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 22, 2010, 09:13:06 PM

Quote from: STAMP on March 22, 2010, 08:56:21 PM
I wouldn't think she could discard a captured hero but could discard the top card of opponent's deck.

Why not? Discarding a captured hero does not target a hero, since captured heroes are not heroes.

I agree. She is causing no harm to a hero, so unless the guidelines for converted abilities extend to heroes and captured heroes, her ability would work when converted.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 22, 2010, 11:18:40 PM »

Captured heroes are no more heroes than horse apples are apples, or cow pies are pies, or prairie oysters are oysters...

SAs convert unless they do something mean to heroes. Salome does absolutely nothing to heroes (expect possibly raise their cholesterol

).

STAMP · « **Reply #7 on:** March 22, 2010, 11:30:23 PM »

...and common sense ain't all that common.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #8 on:** March 22, 2010, 11:31:43 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 22, 2010, 08:21:30 PM

The big question is whether she can take advantage of The Garden Tomb.

This may have been just a joke, but I'm pretty sure the answer is "No" just the same as there being no Name-on-Name Bonus for Saul/Paul (as Saul) when he uses Saul's Spear or Saul's Javelin.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 22, 2010, 11:54:43 PM »

Except name-on-name has nothing to do with special abilities.

To use an analogy STAMP would appreciate, they are completely separate kettles of fish. Do they put fish in kettles in the Pacific northwest?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #10 on:** March 22, 2010, 11:56:24 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 22, 2010, 11:54:43 PM

Except name-on-name has nothing to do with special abilities.

Sure it does. The reason Saul's spear doesn't work on Saul/Paul is because while the name is the same, the person is different.

I already asked about this, and I was told that the two salomes are completely different people, and only the hero version works with TGT.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #11 on:** March 23, 2010, 12:02:28 AM »

T_T I know I was liek MWHAHAHAA! and then we were told no, then I was liek it can't be true thats IMPOSSIBLE! and they were like search your feelings you know it to be true! Then I was like NOOOOOOOOOOOO! You meatbag! you know?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #12 on:** March 23, 2010, 12:10:55 AM »

Twould be epic if she did though...self-ignore for the win!

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 23, 2010, 12:12:56 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on March 22, 2010, 11:56:24 PM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 22, 2010, 11:54:43 PM
Except name-on-name has nothing to do with special abilities.

Sure it does. The reason Saul's spear doesn't work on Saul/Paul is because while the name is the same, the person is different.

What do you mean that Saul's Spear doesn't work on Saul/Paul? If Paul is in battle and somehow gets initiative, I can play Saul's Spear and gain 3/2. If Paul is then forced to fight a hero, the SA on Saul's Spear takes over and the strength numbers on the spear disappear.

What exactly is it that doesn't work since the ability and special ability both seem to kick in as expected?

Discussion of name-on-name are irrelevant here as that is based on a game rule that exists outside the cards, whereas Salome taking advantage of TGT is based on an in-game SA.

Quote

I already asked about this, and I was told that the two salomes are completely different people, and only the hero version works with TGT.

I agree that the two Salome's are completely different people. I even understand why TGT can't work with an evil Salome (either the gold EC or the converted white hero), because the Miriam ruling said you couldn't ignore your own alignment by game rule. What I don't understand is why if both are heroes only one of them would work with TGT since the SA on TGT doesn't limit itself, and then is no game rule preventing it.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #14 on:** March 23, 2010, 12:32:05 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 23, 2010, 12:12:56 AM

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on March 22, 2010, 11:56:24 PM
Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 22, 2010, 11:54:43 PM
Except name-on-name has nothing to do with special abilities.

Sure it does. The reason Saul's spear doesn't work on Saul/Paul is because while the name is the same, the person is different.
What do you mean that Saul's Spear doesn't work on Saul/Paul? If Paul is in battle and somehow gets initiative, I can play Saul's Spear and gain 3/2. If Paul is then forced to fight a hero, the SA on Saul's Spear takes over and the strength numbers on the spear disappear.

What exactly is it that doesn't work since the ability and special ability both seem to kick in as expected?

Discussion of name-on-name are irrelevant here as that is based on a game rule that exists outside the cards, whereas Salome taking advantage of TGT is based on an in-game SA.

I typo'd. I meant to say the name on name does not work. If you play Saul's Spear on Saul, he will not get a 6/4 boost, because he is not the same person that Saul's Spear is referencing.

One is a game rule and the other is an ability yes, but in this case, BOTH look at who the character really is, rather than just the name.

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on March 23, 2010, 12:02:28 AM

T_T I know I was liek MWHAHAHAA! and then we were told no, then I was liek it can't be true thats IMPOSSIBLE! and they were like search your feelings you know it to be true! Then I was like NOOOOOOOOOOOO! You meatbag! you know?

Statement: We have both been talking about too much Star Wars the past two days.

Exclamation: Lol.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 23, 2010, 12:56:12 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablolink=topic=20320.msg317346#msg317346 date=1269318725

One is a game rule and the other is an ability yes, but in this case, BOTH look at who the character really is, rather than just the name.

I understand that that is your claim. What I am trying to get someone to explain is the reasoning behind the ruling.

Name-on-name looks at "who the character really is" by definition of name-on-name. It is specifically written into the rule.

SAs on the other hand do not, in general, look at "who the character really is." Instead they are supposed to be interpreted as written.

Why is TGT an exception to this? More importantly if a player asks me to make a ruling on another SA how can I determine if it is an "as written" SA or a "who the character really is" SA?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #16 on:** March 23, 2010, 01:04:36 AM »

I believe there is some precedent somewhere involving Joseph (high regent to Pharaoh) and Joseph (earthly father of the Son of God), but I can't recall what card has that ruling.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #17 on:** March 23, 2010, 01:43:01 AM »

Its Begging for Grain that has the precedent.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 23, 2010, 08:13:04 AM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on March 23, 2010, 01:43:01 AM

Its Begging for Grain that has the precedent.

I don't think it does.

Begging for Grain states "Begging for Grain is negated if O.T. Joseph enters battle." The wording of the SA itself eliminates the NT Joseph from consideration.

Doesn't the fact that Begging for Grain has language specifically designed to limit it to one of two possible Josephs actually strengthen the interpretation that I am asking about above? If SAs on enhancements are limited to "who the character really is" why add extra verbiage in Begging for Grain? Wouldn't "Begging for Grain is negated if Joseph enters battle" do the trick by itself?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #19 on:** March 23, 2010, 08:32:06 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 23, 2010, 08:13:04 AM

If SAs on enhancements are limited to "who the character really is" why add extra verbiage in Begging for Grain?

For the same reason that cards from the same set say "Cannot be interrupted, prevented, or negated." They used a lot of excessive clarifying text.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 23, 2010, 11:40:14 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on March 23, 2010, 08:32:06 AM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 23, 2010, 08:13:04 AM
If SAs on enhancements are limited to "who the character really is" why add extra verbiage in Begging for Grain?

For the same reason that cards from the same set say "Cannot be interrupted, prevented, or negated." They used a lot of excessive clarifying text.

So your claim is that Joseph the Carpenter would not negate a Begging for Grain that said, "Begging for Grain is negated if Joseph enters battle?"

Does anyone else agree with that assessment?

The Guardian · « **Reply #21 on:** March 23, 2010, 11:47:43 AM »

TGT refers only to the Salome that is mentioned in the scripture verse found on TGT.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #22 on:** March 23, 2010, 11:47:53 AM »

The PTB obviously would agree

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #23 on:** March 23, 2010, 05:07:31 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 23, 2010, 11:40:14 AM

So your claim is that Joseph the Carpenter would not negate a Begging for Grain that said, "Begging for Grain is negated if Joseph enters battle?"

Does anyone else agree with that assessment?

That is how I would have ruled.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #24 on:** March 23, 2010, 08:01:01 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 23, 2010, 05:07:31 PM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 23, 2010, 11:40:14 AM
So your claim is that Joseph the Carpenter would not negate a Begging for Grain that said, "Begging for Grain is negated if Joseph enters battle?"

Does anyone else agree with that assessment?

That is how I would have ruled.

Seconded. However, if I ran a tourney, I would probably make a lot of silly rules.

(JK)

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #25 on:** March 23, 2010, 08:39:39 PM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on March 23, 2010, 08:01:01 PM

Seconded. However, if I ran a tourney, I would probably make a lot of silly rules. (JK)

You mean like having Nebuchadnezzar search for Red Dragon, or playing Peace Treaty to ignore that Red Dragon while Priestly Breastplate is active?

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #26 on:** March 23, 2010, 09:00:38 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 23, 2010, 08:39:39 PM

Quote from: BubbleBoy on March 23, 2010, 08:01:01 PM
Seconded. However, if I ran a tourney, I would probably make a lot of silly rules. (JK)

You mean like having Nebuchadnezzar search for Red Dragon, or playing Peace Treaty to ignore that Red Dragon while Priestly Breastplate is active?

Actually, only Royal Parade can do that.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 24, 2010, 12:24:49 AM »

Quote from: The Guardian on March 23, 2010, 11:47:43 AM

TGT refers only to the Salome that is mentioned in the scripture verse found on TGT.

Just to be clear, and to answer the question I have been asking throughout the thread...

Is this ruling a one-off for TGT and Salome or is it a general ruling for all special abilities?

STAMP · « **Reply #28 on:** March 24, 2010, 11:36:39 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 24, 2010, 12:24:49 AM

Quote from: The Guardian on March 23, 2010, 11:47:43 AM
TGT refers only to the Salome that is mentioned in the scripture verse found on TGT.
Just to be clear, and to answer the question I have been asking throughout the thread...

Is this ruling a one-off for TGT and Salome or is it a general ruling for all special abilities?

The latter.

But...I guess I'll have to go with MJB on this and request that it is offically documented in the new REG. Not everyone has the same Bible knowledge, and as I mentioned before, common sense ain't all that common, so it would be good to spell it out in the letter of the law.

News:

Author Topic: Converted Salome (Read 4695 times)

Tracer Burnout

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