Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: stefferweffer on April 26, 2010, 05:02:23 PM
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Say an opponent used Holy Grail to convert them. Then, when defending, I cause a side battle between the solo rescuing hero and another hero (Nero). I assume Nero is winning (successfully blocking) by immunity now?
Thanks.
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In a side battle no one is "attacking" or "blocking." They are just battling.
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Converted ECs only keep their SA if the SA does not target a hero. I am guessing that Nero's SA saying "immune to lone heroes" does actually target heroes (lone ones anyway), and therefore fizzles. I could be wrong, but that is how I would rule it.
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Converted ECs only keep their SA if the SA does not target a hero. I am guessing that Nero's SA saying "immune to lone heroes" does actually target heroes (lone ones anyway), and therefore fizzles. I could be wrong, but that is how I would rule it.
Correction: they keep their SA's if it doesn't HARM a hero. Immunity to a hero isn't harm. The only question I have is whether or not a hero vs. a hero is alone.
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I thought "harm" was defined as an effect from an opposite alignment, which would never occur between a converted EC (now a hero) and a hero anyway. I hope this is being clarified in the New REG.
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It's not "harm," it's "target," since harm only comes from the opposite alignment so if that were the case ALL Evil SA's would convert.
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It's not "harm," it's "target," since harm only comes from the opposite alignment so if that were the case ALL Evil SA's would convert.
"Harm" still works if you change the conditions to say that abilities that would be considered harm as an EC don't convert. It's a little convoluted though, and might change how we play a little bit...
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That doesn't work either, since almost all Evil Abilities I can think of that aren't banding harm Heroes.
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That doesn't work either, since almost all Evil Abilities I can think of that aren't banding harm Heroes.
Searchers, CBN enhs., banding, hand d/c, deck d/c, there's still quite a bit of fun stuff left. It actually doesn't even change much to do it the way I described.
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In a side battle no one is "attacking" or "blocking." They are just battling.
Sorry everyone. I've read the responses and I'm still not sure I have my answer yet.
Is the above correct that in a side battle there are no character special abilities? If so then I never knew this.
The special abilities just say "Immune to lone heroes", so I don't see why it doesn't work. Thanks again.
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I still say that SAs of converted ECs cannot target heroes, since the "Current REG" definition of not harming heroes is false. According to the defintion of harm, no converted EC would ever harm a hero since they are of the same alignment.
However, until there is definitive clarification on converted EC SAs, the Professor's assessment will suffice. The side battle has two heroes in it, so neither hero is alone.
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Why not just make a version of harm that means the exact same thing, except between two cards of the same alignment... so like "friendly fire" or something.
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I still say that SAs of converted ECs cannot target heroes....
Isn't this kind of the same issue as ignore not really 'targeting' evil characters? The Immunity is 'targeting' any heroes at all. If anything the immunity is targeting Nero himself. The ability says "I cannot be hurt by a long hero." That doesn't sound like it's targeting a hero, just stating what can't hurt it. Because of that, I would think the ability would carry over.
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I still say that SAs of converted ECs cannot target heroes, since the "Current REG" definition of not harming heroes is false. According to the defintion of harm, no converted EC would ever harm a hero since they are of the same alignment.
However, until there is definitive clarification on converted EC SAs, the Professor's assessment will suffice. The side battle has two heroes in it, so neither hero is alone.
Wow. I am SO confused. The side battle has two heroes in it , but aren't they fighting each other? Wouldn't that make each one "alone"? Nero isn't fighting against himself, is he?
Again, most EC special abilities I can see how they would go away after conversion, but not this one. Is it any different if Nero is the rescuing hero, and someone causes a side battle between a hero and my converted Nero? Isn't my Nero immune to that "lone" hero in the side battle?
I mainly thought of this because I was curious if these two ECs would be good in a "side battle" deck, because of the conversion possibilities. Apparently the verdict is still out on if this works or not. Thanks again for all your help.
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The rules for what converts is really unknown (I've seen several "official" changes that never made it to the reg) and is long overdue for clarification. I'm not sure if "in the nature of a hero", "doesn't target a hero", "doesn't harm a hero", etc. is what we are supposed to go by. There are some problems with each of these which is why I thought there was going to be a list of abilities that convert but I've never seen that list. Now for this immunity question:
The two heroes are fighting each other and not themselves in the side battle so yes they are alone. The immunity is targeting Nero and is not harming or targeting other heroes. I think the reason the ability does NOT convert is that in the definition of immunity, a character cannot be immune to its own alignment. So even if the conversion rules allowed for it, by immunity's definition it wouldn't do anything.
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I think the reason the ability does NOT convert is that in the definition of immunity, a character cannot be immune to its own alignment.
Where is it written that immunity is defined by alignment?
I agree that there has been a lot of talk about conversion of EC abilities with no clear conclusion. I am hopeful that the new REG will be the long-awaited resolution.