Author Topic: Converted Evil Character (Read 6436 times)

Crashfach2002 · « **on:** February 07, 2009, 11:09:12 PM »

I know that the special ability of a converted Evil Character stay active unless they target a Hero. My question is how do you play some cards after they have been converted?

1. King Ben-Hadad I "If block is successful, holder may look at opponent's have and place one card beneath opponent's draw pile"

2. King Rezin "Banding and capture abilities on evil cards cannot be negated if holder has a Damascus Site in play"

3. King Merodach-baladan "Look at opponent's hand. You may play a crimson Enhancement with a II Kings or Isaiah reference"

4. Gomer "Character may band with any male Evil Character each turn"

5. Ashpenaz "Convert a captured human Hero in your territory to a crimson Evil Character. You control the character"

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #1 on:** February 07, 2009, 11:11:38 PM »

EDIT: ~~1. Heroes don't block, so it doesn't do anything~~

2. I would say this would work.

3. The look part works, but the crimson part doesn't work obviously.

4. Heroes don't band to ECs, so this doesn't do anything

5. This one I'm not 100% sure on. However, it is not a normal heroes ability to convert a hero. So, I would say no.

Tsavong Lah · « **Reply #2 on:** February 07, 2009, 11:14:40 PM »

#2 wouldn't do much for you either way; the ability specifies "evil" banding and capture abilities, and King Rezin is no longer evil. If anything you'd be helping your opponent block your converted Rezin.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 15, 2009, 03:59:37 PM »

A new question, Say an evil character is converted. You can use that converted evil character for a rescue attempt. But say you have the artifact Chariot of Fire "following your rescue attempt, return all heroes in your discard pile to your draw pile. Shuffle draw pile." activated. Since he is a hero does he go back into your draw pile, or get discarded, then in discard pile he is no longer a hero and will not get shuffled back in?

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #4 on:** February 15, 2009, 04:28:21 PM »

once he hits the d/c pile, he resets and becomes a EC. So he activates CoF, but isn't shuffled into deck.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #5 on:** February 15, 2009, 04:47:46 PM »

Davids Harp however would work. It targets the character to return to the draw pile BEFORE he reaches the discard pile.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #6 on:** February 15, 2009, 04:54:22 PM »

right, but he doesn't come back as a hero.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #7 on:** February 15, 2009, 04:57:06 PM »

I know, but thats a way to recycle that EC again.

frisian9 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 17, 2009, 08:29:52 PM »

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on February 07, 2009, 11:09:12 PM

5. Ashpenaz "Convert a captured human Hero in your territory to a crimson Evil Character. You control the character"

"If an Evil Character is converted to a Hero, it’s special ability works as long as it does not harm Heroes". (REG)

Converting a Hero is considered harm, right? I think Ashpenaz can't use its SA if converted to a Hero.

Mike

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #9 on:** February 17, 2009, 08:31:36 PM »

It would seem that way to me.

TimMierz · « **Reply #10 on:** February 17, 2009, 09:24:16 PM »

Harm is an action from the opposite alignment. A Hero can never harm a Hero, by definition. That definition can't be right.

Gabe · « **Reply #11 on:** February 17, 2009, 10:20:13 PM »

I agree that it seems "unherolike" for Ashpenaz to convert a captured Hero to an evil Character and it shouldn't work. But, based on the current definition, I believe that it would work. It seems inconsistent if we say it doesn't work because he's "harming" a "captured Hero".

The first thing that stands out to me is that captured Heroes are not treated the same as Heroes. (They can't be Christian Martyred. They aren't discarded to Wrath of Stan. etc) Captured Heroes don't have any allignment. They're nuetral because they're being treated as a Lost Soul. Based on other rulings a Hero and a captured Hero are not treated the same.

Along those same thoughts, I see this being similar to not allowing Arioch to discard a "captured Character" because it's not a human but a "captured human".

We could fix this by adding "or captured Heroes" to the end of the definition. That would also stop cards like Barabbas from working when converted. We might even expand the definition further and say "or Lost Souls". That would stop both Ashpenaz and Barabbas but it would also stop the ability of Arioch from converting. One drawback with that is it would stop abilities like Nebushasban, who could be used to help gain access when he's converted.

"If an Evil Character is converted to a Hero, it’s special ability works as long as it cannot negatively effect a does not harm Heroes or captured Heroes/Lost Souls."

That being said it's possible that I'm overlooking some obvious reason that Ashpenaz shouldn't work still based on the current definition.

Rubber band warrior · « **Reply #12 on:** February 18, 2009, 09:50:17 AM »

Quote from: Cameron the Conqueror on February 07, 2009, 11:11:38 PM

1. Heroes don't block, so it doesn't do anything

Wrong. It never says that he has to be the one blocking, so if he is succesfully blocked you can use his special ability. I've ruled it this way; it's been ruled that way for me at Natz before.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #13 on:** February 18, 2009, 09:59:43 AM »

That is true, I agree.

TimMierz · « **Reply #14 on:** February 18, 2009, 10:15:20 AM »

Sorry for being a broken record, but given the definition for harm/negative effect:

"A negative effect is any effect from cards not of the same alignment (i.e., good, evil, or neutral) targeting a character."

Can someone tell me how a Hero can ever harm a Hero?

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #15 on:** February 18, 2009, 10:32:17 AM »

wow, by that definition, a hero could kill every hero in the game and it wouldn't be a harm? IMO, that needs to be changed.

frisian9 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 22, 2009, 04:47:26 PM »

Did you ever step in gum and wonder if it would ever come off your shoe? I kinda feel like that right now.

Mike

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #17 on:** February 22, 2009, 05:03:34 PM »

What does that mean?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #18 on:** February 22, 2009, 05:27:13 PM »

Conversion is the most annoying thing ever, end of story.

frisian9 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 22, 2009, 05:31:06 PM »

I bet Tim Mierz and I have worked on this for 10 man-years. Every time we think it works, it doesn't. Tim, care to try and fix it with something brilliant? I know you can do it

Mike

TimMierz · « **Reply #20 on:** February 22, 2009, 06:52:50 PM »

I thought we just about had a solution that had the "list of exceptions," but I guess nothing ever came of that?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #21 on:** February 22, 2009, 06:54:23 PM »

YMT wants to see the "list."

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #22 on:** February 22, 2009, 06:58:54 PM »

I think I remember you guys discussing the list. I agree, it's probably the best (read: only) solution.

TimMierz · « **Reply #23 on:** February 22, 2009, 07:02:09 PM »

Quote from: Janissary on February 22, 2009, 06:58:54 PM

I think I remember you guys discussing the list. I agree, it's probably the best (read only) solution.

Why, is there a better write-only solution?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #24 on:** February 22, 2009, 07:05:48 PM »

I don't know. I've been partial to typed myself.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #25 on:** February 22, 2009, 08:57:06 PM »

Quote from: Janissary on February 22, 2009, 06:58:54 PM

I think I remember you guys discussing the list. I agree, it's probably the best (read: only) solution.

I would agree this is the best way to do it IF they allowed heroes converted to ecs abilities to work (Cept certain ones) so evil conversion was as useful as hero conversion.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #26 on:** February 22, 2009, 11:11:29 PM »

Hmm good point: I've always been for that but it apparently it's against the games theme.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #27 on:** February 23, 2009, 12:00:42 AM »

Quote from: Janissary on February 22, 2009, 11:11:29 PM

Hmm good point: I've always been for that but it apparently it's against the games theme.

I don't see how though, If we turn our backs to God, he doesn't make us nigh useless.

frisian9 · « **Reply #28 on:** February 25, 2009, 01:01:48 PM »

Quote from: TimMierz on February 22, 2009, 06:52:50 PM

I thought we just about had a solution that had the "list of exceptions," but I guess nothing ever came of that?

I heard something drop on hte floor some time ago. I bet it was the list of exceptions. It's probably on the 67A Monroeville bus.

Mike

TimMierz · « **Reply #29 on:** February 25, 2009, 01:46:30 PM »

Well, it looks like someone's headed east soon then.

STAMP · « **Reply #30 on:** February 25, 2009, 02:10:21 PM »

Quote from: TimMierz on February 18, 2009, 10:15:20 AM

Can someone tell me how a Hero can ever harm a Hero?

Samson's Sacrifice (directly) and good side battle enhancements (indirectly).

TimMierz · « **Reply #31 on:** February 25, 2009, 02:17:07 PM »

Not by the current definition of harm.

TimMierz · « **Reply #32 on:** February 26, 2009, 12:05:10 PM »

A long while ago I made a post that laid out exactly what sorts of abilities I suggested were and weren't allowed by the then-current "nature of a Hero" rule of conversion. Sadly, that's since been lost. I'd like to try here to recreate that list, in hopes that it may be helpful in getting away from the current definition, "its special ability works as long as it does not harm Heroes," which has previously-mentioned problems. The options seem to be redefining "harm" or redefining conversion. I'd like to redefine conversion.

Possible redefinition of "harm"
The following abilities harm a character when that character is the target:
Discard, Remove from Game, Convert, Return to Deck, Capture, Reduce Abilities, Set-Aside, Withdraw, Fight Each Other
The alignment of the card causing the harm does not matter [contrary to the current definition].

Possible list of evil abilities that do not convert
- Immunity to or protection from good cards (Emperor Claudius: "Emperor Claudius is immune to N.T. Heroes.")
- Preventing or negating exclusively good cards (The Tartan: "Negate all protect abilities on Heroes...")
- Discarding, removing from the game, converting, returning to deck, capturing, reducing abilities of, setting aside, withdrawing, or causing side battles between exclusively good cards, other than itself (Cain: "...discard any Hero in a territory", but not Malchus: "...place [this card] in opponent's land of bondage..." or King Asnappar: "You may capture an Egyptian or a Syrian...") (Alternately, if also using the above redefinition of harm, then more concisely "Harming exclusively good cards, other than itself")
- Repelling good cards (Michal: "Character ignores David and any enhancement cards connected with him.")
- Searching for or drawing exclusively evil cards (Jannes: "You may search draw pile for Pharaoh’s Throne Room...", but not King Omri: "Search your draw pile for one Samaria Site and put in play...")
- Playing, using or holding evil cards (King Ahaz: "...may use any evil set-aside enhancement.")
- Protecting Lost Souls from rescue (Uzzah: "...protect all Lost Souls from rescue.")
- Adding more evil cards to play (Ashpenaz: "Convert a captured human Hero in your territory to a crimson Evil Character...")
- Exchanging itself with an evil card (Philistine Armor Bearer: "You may exchange this card with an evil Philistine...")
- Banding to evil characters (Gomer: "Character may band with any male Evil Character each turn.", not Absalom's Soldiers: "...May band to Absalom's Soldiers.")
- Making exclusively evil special abilities unnegatable (King Sargon II: "...evil capture abilities cannot be negated.")
- Giving abilities or special abilities to evil cards (King So: "Egyptian Evil Characters have first strike ability...")
- Abilities that specify blocking (Women as Snares: "When using this Character to block...")
- Abilities carried about by an "Evil Character" (Abimelech: "Evil Character repels all Heroes with a Judges reference.")

Still unsure about whether a new definition should include these:
Athaliah ("Character gains 1/1 for each Purple Brigade Hero discarded or captured while she is in play.")

galadgawyn · « **Reply #33 on:** February 26, 2009, 03:43:29 PM »

That is the kind of list that I thought they were spending much of last year's ruling debates figuring out. It is also a list that I almost entirely agree with and think is the best way to deal with conversion. It is what I always thought "in the nature of a hero" meant. FYI, I would say that Athaliah's would probably not nor would King Zimri's.

The Schaef · « **Reply #34 on:** February 26, 2009, 04:05:02 PM »

And it's not weird to anyone that Zimri's ability is not "in the nature of a Hero" even though Samson's Sacrifice has almost the same effect?

Gabe · « **Reply #35 on:** February 26, 2009, 04:09:38 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on February 26, 2009, 04:05:02 PM

And it's not weird to anyone that Zimri's ability is not "in the nature of a Hero" even though Samson's Sacrifice has almost the same effect?

Not really because Heroes don't discard evil enhancements as a cost.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #36 on:** February 26, 2009, 04:11:04 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on February 26, 2009, 04:09:38 PM

Quote from: The Schaef on February 26, 2009, 04:05:02 PM
And it's not weird to anyone that Zimri's ability is not "in the nature of a Hero" even though Samson's Sacrifice has almost the same effect?

Not really because Heroes don't discard evil enhancements as a cost.

If im not mistaken, SS discards an evil fortress?

TimMierz · « **Reply #37 on:** February 26, 2009, 04:12:41 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on February 26, 2009, 04:05:02 PM

And it's not weird to anyone that Zimri's ability is not "in the nature of a Hero" even though Samson's Sacrifice has almost the same effect?

By my (entirely unofficial) criteria, Zimri and friends are convertible. The 3rd point (the "harm"-type one) allows those effects to happen to
himself. It could probably be worded more precisely.

Still, I was told (I think by you, but maybe not) that we shouldn't just ask, "Can a current good card do this?" because that can change with every set.

The Schaef · « **Reply #38 on:** February 26, 2009, 04:29:23 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on February 26, 2009, 04:09:38 PM

Not really because Heroes don't discard evil enhancements as a cost.

This was meant to be humorous, right?

Quote from: TimMierz on February 26, 2009, 04:12:41 PM

Still, I was told (I think by you, but maybe not) that we shouldn't just ask, "Can a current good card do this?" because that can change with every set.

It was me who said that, it's why conversion was no longer going to hold up under that definition.

Your third definition is a little strange, I agree. Since Zimri discards himself, that ability would convert, and therefore he would still have his full effect. If you meant he ONLY discards himself, then he has only half a converted effect, and that seems to be counter-intuitive and more fiddly rather than simpler.

In any event, the response was more towards galadgawyn who used Zimri as his example of a card that wouldn't work.

TimMierz · « **Reply #39 on:** February 26, 2009, 04:39:23 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on February 26, 2009, 04:29:23 PM

Your third definition is a little strange, I agree. Since Zimri discards himself, that ability would convert, and therefore he would still have his full effect. If you meant he ONLY discards himself, then he has only half a converted effect, and that seems to be counter-intuitive and more fiddly rather than simpler.

Well, I think (as I believe you and many others do) that each distinct ability should either convert or not convert - there should be no partial conversions of a single special ability.* Does "discard all cards in battle" target exclusively good cards? No, it targets cards of any alignment (much like King Asnappar), therefore that restriction does not apply and that whole ability goes through. It could happen that at the time it's used, it only discards Heroes (like a converted Asnappar can still be used to target Ittai), but that's okay. We're talking about converting entire abilities, not determining when an ability can be applied.

Other examples to clarify that: Malchus is a self-capture like Servant Girl, and targets only itself, so it works after conversion. Leper is a decrease that would affect only Heroes, and not just itself, so it would not work after conversion. I hope this clarifies my intent. If anyone has a cleaner wording for that, I'm very open to it.

*Cards with multiple distinct abilities, like Elymas, can have one ability (discard a demon) convert but not another (discard a Hero).

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Author Topic: Converted Evil Character (Read 6436 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef