Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: kariusvega on July 06, 2016, 03:44:35 PM
Title: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: kariusvega on July 06, 2016, 03:44:35 PM
Just looking for a final definitive ruling here with Coliseum and CBN enhancements such as Samuel's Edict:
Coliseum is in play.
In a special initiative situation can Samuel's Edict be played with special initiative while Coliseum is not being negated from hand to toss for 3/3? Or is it only considered a 3/3 toss which may only be played with normal initiative?
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: jesse on July 06, 2016, 03:47:43 PM
I thought that special initiative only an opportunity for interrupting or negating the ability removing your last character from battle (if it can be negated)...
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: Minister Polarius on July 06, 2016, 04:00:16 PM
From the REG:
Quote
When a player is controlling character(s) in battle and an opponent's special ability, or a game rule that has been triggered by an opponent's special ability, would leave that player with no character in battle when the special ability has completed, they have Special Initiative. When this occurs, all abilities are paused and suspended (including additional abilities on cards played or any triggers) and the player with their character(s) being removed has the opportunity to play an Enhancement that will interrupt or negate the ability that is causing the removal (or that triggered the corresponding game rule).The enhancement played must be able to interrupt or negate the removing ability. If the card with the removing ability was already removed from play due to its ability, it may still be targeted during Special Initiative by an enhancement that specifically targets its card type.
The bolded and italic part is perhaps earthshattering in terms of the rules not lining up with how everyone plays (e.g. currently everyone knows you can't play an interrupt that's being prevented, but this rule actually says the prevent is being suspended so you could), the underlined part is what allows you to play a card during special initiative, and the stricken through part contradicts the rest of the rule if it's results-based rather than intent-based. This entry is extremely ambiguous and needs to be clarified before we can know for sure how a tossed card with an interrupt works. As is, different interpretations could lead to opposite answers: either SA gives you the ability to play the interrupt, then a different set of rules takes over once the card has been played and it gets tossed (which is already the ruling, that toss targets a played card not the cards in hand); or, the strikethrough part is horribly worded but means to say you can't play an interrupt that is prevented or tossed under current circumstances. Until we get clarification on this entry, it could be either one.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: Minister Polarius on July 06, 2016, 04:01:47 PM
I thought that special initiative only an opportunity for interrupting or negating the ability removing your last character from battle (if it can be negated)...
That's a common misconception. Special Initiative is a set of rules that both defines when you get Special Initiative and what kinds of cards you can play during SI.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: kariusvega on July 06, 2016, 05:10:12 PM
Quote
the player with their character(s) being removed has the opportunity to play an Enhancement that will interrupt or negate the ability that is causing the removal (or that triggered the corresponding game rule).
this is where my understanding is that you could only toss edict for 3/3 in regular initiative since the interrupt/negate portion would not activate during special initiative
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: Minister Polarius on July 06, 2016, 06:47:01 PM
Well the toss abilities are suspended according to the bolded and italicized part so you have to first get around that. It just breaks it a different way.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: kariusvega on July 06, 2016, 08:02:10 PM
in situations with peace, foreign spearman, and roman spearman where it is exclusively a toss battle i've never seen someone be able to play an enhancement with special initiative after being decreased to /0 , which i'm pretty sure is how it's intended to be played out
now a card like forest fire is understandable to negate and dc coliseum assuming the rescuing hero has been tossed down to /0 with special initiative because it would negate coliseum and the toss effect
but i'm feeling like a cbn card would be treated the same way as in a toss battle with roman spearman where the edict would only be tossed for 3/3 with normal initiative and therefore could not be played during special initiative in a toss battle with coliseum or spearman/peace etc.
maybe this is only an interpretation of the wording, but that is why i asked the elders and community for input here
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: RedemptionAggie on July 06, 2016, 08:20:41 PM
Is the question about Sam's Edict to negate Coliseum when decreased to */0? Or Sam's Edict to negate another evil card causing SI? Or both?
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: kariusvega on July 06, 2016, 08:52:53 PM
both
it's pretty much if sam's edict can effectively be played as a last ditch effort in a toss setting caused by coliseum..
after talking to multiple elders and considering other toss circumstances i'm still convinced the answer is no, it cannot be played with special initiative to be tossed as any other enhancement without an interrupt or negate cannot be either
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: Minister Polarius on July 06, 2016, 09:11:28 PM
What I really want to know is whether redoubter will still insist on following the rules exactly as written no matter how ridiculous now that it's come to light the rules say all SA's are suspended during Special Initiative.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: browarod on July 06, 2016, 10:16:12 PM
What I really want to know is whether redoubter will still insist on following the rules exactly as written no matter how ridiculous now that it's come to light the rules say all SA's are suspended during Special Initiative.
Drawing attention to an inconsistency in the rules is one thing, making snide remarks about how one specific person will deal with it is entirely another. The former is okay, the latter is not.
Per the actual topic of this thread, I would have originally said that Samuel's Edict would not be playable during SI with Coliseum active as it would be tossed. However the REQ quote Polarius mentioned does have some inconsistencies that should be addressed/clarified.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: kariusvega on July 06, 2016, 10:26:38 PM
"can i play a 3/3 no special ability card during special initiative?"
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: Red on July 06, 2016, 10:44:50 PM
We wouldn't be having this discussion if we knew how special insh and toss timing works.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: kariusvega on July 06, 2016, 10:50:10 PM
"The enhancement played must be able to interrupt or negate the removing ability." at what point does discarding a 3/3 card interrupt or negate the removing ability?
toss does not target hand. "A toss ability allows a player to discard an enhancement to decrease an opposing character in battle." that's it.. no interrupt, no negate.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: Gabe on July 06, 2016, 11:17:40 PM
I believe kariusvega is accurate in his assessment of how it is to be played.
Mr. Pol is also accurate in his assessment that there is some wonky wording going on with SI.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: jesse on July 06, 2016, 11:24:13 PM
If the intent of special initiative is to give the player losing a battle a last fighting chance, it seems that you should be able to play an interrupt or negate as an interrupt or negate in a toss battle in a special initiative situation...that SI would "override" the toss.
With this in mind, I'm wondering why "instead" abilities are not permitted in a SI situation, as they are similar to an interrupt or negate in that they keep in battle the character being defeated.
I guess though if you could use an instead in SI, it would make Dominants able to be stopped.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: Minister Polarius on July 07, 2016, 12:52:13 AM
So this is an official ruling that the striken through part is to be followed but not the bolded and italicized part?
I don't think it's as simple as that. We've added this to the agenda for our call tomorrow, but we have a couple dozen topics to discuss so I cannot guarantee we'll get to them all... unless we pull an all nighter.
We'll give an answer as soon as we have something official. In the meantime I'm fairly certain that a Sam's Edict cannot be played under SI if Coliseum is active.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: TheHobbit13 on July 07, 2016, 02:47:51 AM
I don't really see much room for confusion unless you read each sentence in a vacuum, which is fine in certain places but here, really, the stricken out part clarifies what "will interupt" actually means. But the bolded part is interesting especially because it changes how you play cards like Agrippa etc I don't remember people playing SI like that but technically it makes more sense. Doesn't suspending abilities create an odd situation with something like Cain?
"The enhancement played must be able to interrupt or negate the removing ability." at what point does discarding a 3/3 card interrupt or negate the removing ability?
toss does not target hand. "A toss ability allows a player to discard an enhancement to decrease an opposing character in battle." that's it.. no interrupt, no negate.
I think the issue is that what Polarius bolded could mean that Coliseum shuts off in SI.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: Minister Polarius on July 07, 2016, 09:15:29 AM
It does mean that. All it says is "all abilities are suspended." We were just shoved a terrible Heal rule change that was reported as not a rule change because we just found out the rules said something we didn't think they did and now we have to follow them. We just found out the rules say that all abilities are suspended during SI, and I'm going to play like that until either this rule is changed or heal is reverted. Otherwise you're cherry-picking.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: The Guardian on July 07, 2016, 11:05:13 AM
I believe what it needs to say is "all abilities that have not completed, or are being triggered, are paused and suspended."
Example: You block with an Assyrian Archer with Two Thousand Horses to draw and then play a battle winner giving me special initiative. SI must be resolved before your Assyrian Archer can band or my Golden Cherubim can trigger.
Example: You block my Michael while I have Chamber of Angels on the table. You play a card to discard Michael. SI resolves before Chamber of Angels can trigger to send Michael there instead of the discard pile.
Abilities that have completed, or are ongoing, are not suspended.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: Redoubter on July 07, 2016, 01:18:43 PM
There is no inherent problem with the wording as-is in terms of consistencies in current rulings, but there certainly could be more clarity there, I don't think anyone could argue otherwise (like it has always been with SI).
As Guardian noted, while SI does suspend abilities, it is missing a key component if you are trying to make it cause everything else to no longer work: interrupt. An interrupt undoes an ability and then suspends it. SI does not undo anything; any ability that already activated and is completed or is currently ongoing is still in effect. This includes prevent, protect, triggers, and so on. The suspension, though, makes it so that everything that has not completed must wait until the SI is resolved; a trigger sees a condition (as Cherubim does in Guardian's example) during SI, but it cannot actually complete at that time (the rest of it is suspended), but a protect or prevent is still active during SI.
The part that was stricken out of that quote is actually essential to the current definition of SI. It clarifies that the card you play must interrupt or negate the source, not through a convoluted cascade negate, and that you also can't just play anything with "interrupt" or "negate" in the special ability. Removing that component substantially changes SI, so it cannot simply be discarded without changing the entire meaning of the entry.
As to Coliseum itself and whether you can play something that would be Tossed, this is again a great question that pops up due to a new card, and as noted by the other Judges in this thread, we are hoping to release an official ruling on that ASAP.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: kram1138 on July 07, 2016, 01:30:24 PM
SI does not undo anything; any ability that already activated and is completed or is currently ongoing is still in effect. This includes prevent, protect, triggers, and so on.
The problem is that it isn't what it says, which has been said before. It says that abilities are suspended. The definition of the word "suspend": "temporarily prevent from continuing or being in force or effect". Ongoing abilities are currently active, so suspending them would stop them from being in effect. That's just going from how it is described in English. Maybe suspend has some other meaning in Redemption context, but that's not intuitive in any way.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: Redoubter on July 07, 2016, 01:35:38 PM
Redemption definitions do not always use the dictionary for keywords (most card games are similar in this respect; what does "poisoned" mean to an inanimate card if we just use the dictionary?), and 'suspend' means something specific in Redemption: it refers to the completion of an ability (or battle, also used in Side Battle) being postponed while something else is occurring (such as during interrupt effects or as a result of SI for an ability, and during the side battle for Side Battle). It is specifically referring to the completion of something, and doesn't interrupt (undo) anything in the current framework of Redemption.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: Gabe on July 07, 2016, 01:51:34 PM
Quote
...all abilities are paused and suspended...
Let's say for a moment that we've applied a unique definition to "suspended" so that it doesn't affect ongoing abilities. How are we defining "paused"?
Redemption definitions do not always use the dictionary for keywords (most card games are similar in this respect; what does "poisoned" mean to an inanimate card if we just use the dictionary?), and 'suspend' means something specific in Redemption: it refers to the completion of an ability (or battle, also used in Side Battle) being postponed while something else is occurring (such as during interrupt effects or as a result of SI for an ability, and during the side battle for Side Battle). It is specifically referring to the completion of something, and doesn't interrupt (undo) anything in the current framework of Redemption.
Not according to the REG. It doesn't define what happens when an ability is suspended. I just says that abilities that are interrupted are undone and suspended then reactivated. Nothing about it only referring to the completion of the ability.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: Redoubter on July 07, 2016, 01:58:49 PM
Let's say for a moment that we've applied a unique definition to "suspended" so that it doesn't affect ongoing abilities. How are we defining "paused"?
How does all of this jive with commandment #1?
We don't have a definition of "paused," this is correct; however, I don't see that being equal to "undo" else we could simply have used the word we have for that (interrupt). So unless we were to define "pause" as "undo," I cannot see this causing anything already completed and/or ongoing to not remain so (as currently ruled).
Again, the wording can certainly use clarifications, and I don't know that this will ever change for SI (the need to keep tweaking it, it is special after all). It just isn't breaking the game right now based on the current definition.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: kariusvega on July 07, 2016, 05:39:14 PM
thank you very much for the elder's response and consideration here, very appreciated
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: Gabe on July 12, 2016, 10:38:13 AM
Our consensus on this question is as follows:
During special initiative players are NOT allowed to play a card that would be tossed (therefore not actually interrupting or negating the card that caused SI). This is consistent with how players are not allowed to play an interrupt/negate that is being prevented.
Additionally, if a toss ability is negated (during SI or otherwise), all tossed cards return to their previous location (usually the holders hand).
We are working to update the entry for SI and Toss to make it more clear.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: Josh on July 12, 2016, 01:04:25 PM
During special initiative players are NOT allowed to play a card that would be tossed (therefore not actually interrupting or negating the card that caused SI). This is consistent with how players are not allowed to play an interrupt/negate that is being prevented.
Additionally, if a toss ability is negated (during SI or otherwise), all tossed cards return to their previous location (usually the holders hand).
We are working to update the entry for SI and Toss to make it more clear.
Thanks to the Elders for the clarification!
I guess this means Toss won't be defined as a Modifier as Polarius suggested. I actually think his argument had a lot of merit. Toss functions basically the same as the CBP, CBI, and CBN Modifiers. They all "modify" how other cards are played: CBP/I/N grant CBP/I/N to certain abilities before the targeted abilities activate, and Toss grants "discard this enhancement to decrease an opposing character X/X regardless of protection or immunity (X = strength of the discarded enhancement)" to an enhancement when played, before the targeted enhancement activates.
This also means Toss is not a Play ability, which are inherently CBI.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: Gabe on July 12, 2016, 01:24:37 PM
I don't necessarily agree with all of his assertions in the thread, but the suggestion that Toss be classified as a Modifier is one I definitely support.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: Gabe on July 12, 2016, 01:35:48 PM
Thank you for the link. We will consider that option as we discuss how to make the toss entry clearer in the REG.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: Praeceps on July 12, 2016, 09:45:16 PM
It would make things easier and would mean you wouldn't have to debate using space on a toss card for the CBI portion vs. leaving it open to argument, speculation, and augury as to figuring out just what happens when the card does get interrupted and nuked or negated.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: Josh on July 13, 2016, 08:07:04 AM
It would make things easier and would mean you wouldn't have to debate using space on a toss card for the CBI portion vs. leaving it open to argument, speculation, and augury as to figuring out just what happens when the card does get interrupted and nuked or negated.
Well, Modifiers are not inherently CBN; only abilities that grant CBP/I/N to other abilities are inherently CBN. Instead and Regardless are not CBN unless the whole ability is.
But since abilities that grant CBP/I/N were ruled to be inherently CBN for simplicity, Toss abilities could be ruled to be CBI as a default, I guess. Is Casting Stones the only Toss card that isn't CBI already?
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: Gabe on July 13, 2016, 08:39:17 AM
But since abilities that grant CBP/I/N were ruled to be inherently CBN for simplicity, Toss abilities could be ruled to be CBI as a default, I guess. Is Casting Stones the only Toss card that isn't CBI already?
Coliseum, the card this thread is about. ::) :)
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: Josh on July 13, 2016, 09:36:17 AM
But since abilities that grant CBP/I/N were ruled to be inherently CBN for simplicity, Toss abilities could be ruled to be CBI as a default, I guess. Is Casting Stones the only Toss card that isn't CBI already?
Coliseum, the card this thread is about. ::) :)
Because of Coliseum, I don't think Toss abilities should be inherently CBI or CBN. Coliseum can work both ways, and there are a good number of GEs with 5+ strength that Coliseum would toss for CBI battlewinners.
Title: Re: Coliseum Special Initiative Toss CBN Cards
Post by: The Guardian on July 13, 2016, 09:46:04 AM
+1 Even though it can get slightly messy, I think it's best to leave Coliseum as non-CBI.