Author Topic: Cloud confusion (Read 2316 times)

Jeremystair · « **on:** February 22, 2017, 12:46:19 PM »

How can you stop confusion? Are there any cards and if there are what are they? Seems to me once it's played int removes itself from the game your opponent doesn't have the initiative to stop it right?

Ironisaac · « **Reply #1 on:** February 22, 2017, 12:52:44 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on February 22, 2017, 12:46:19 PM

How can you stop confusion? Are there any cards and if there are what are they? Seems to me once it's played int removes itself from the game your opponent doesn't have the initiative to stop it right?

that's pretty much how it works. you can get rid of it with something like gam's speech, but the only way to do it in battle is when it's a stalemate/mutual destruction, because then you actually have inish.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #2 on:** February 22, 2017, 12:57:42 PM »

What about Covenant of Noah? And what if Moses is in play does gam's speech work, no right?

Ironisaac · « **Reply #3 on:** February 23, 2017, 10:43:09 AM »

moses negates speech unless it was played off of stephen/peter, as they make it CBN

Jeremystair · « **Reply #4 on:** February 23, 2017, 11:01:47 AM »

You avoided does covenant of Noah work? Or maybe you don't know either

Ironisaac · « **Reply #5 on:** February 23, 2017, 11:19:55 AM »

i think it should work, but that apparently that is wrong so i'm just staying out of that issue.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #6 on:** February 23, 2017, 11:22:31 AM »

What who said that was wrong?

Ironisaac · « **Reply #7 on:** February 23, 2017, 11:29:38 AM »

in the other confusion (cow) post a few weeks ago. you asked this same question.

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/confusion-(cow)/

Jeremystair · « **Reply #8 on:** February 23, 2017, 12:52:32 PM »

Oh yeah I guess so but no one answered it straight! It was a kind of round about answer with no explanation

The Guardian · « **Reply #9 on:** February 23, 2017, 12:59:04 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on February 23, 2017, 12:52:32 PM

Oh yeah I guess so but no one answered it straight! It was a kind of round about answer with no explanation

Two people answered with an explanation.

Confusion removes itself from the game as part of the ability. That ability completes before anything else can be done. Covenant of Noah can only interrupt and prevent enhancements that are in play therefore it cannot target Confusion (CoW).

Jeremystair · « **Reply #10 on:** February 23, 2017, 01:31:29 PM »

Yep still don't get it why can't it interrupt? I don't have to have the initiative to play it and as soon as you play confusion why can't I play Covenant of Noah to interrupt it? And if you can't then the card is way to OP because you can't do nothing to stop it! And how does gam's speech work then?

I keep reading the REG on interrupt and it sounds like he can stop confusion.

Red Wing · « **Reply #11 on:** February 23, 2017, 02:01:28 PM »

The best ways to stop Confusion are preemptive—like Jacob (CoW), Hezzy's Signet Ring, Crowds LS, Nazareth.

Ironisaac · « **Reply #12 on:** February 23, 2017, 02:03:28 PM »

Is the new confusion a search? I didn't think it was...

Red Wing · « **Reply #13 on:** February 23, 2017, 03:33:13 PM »

Quote from: Ironisaac on February 23, 2017, 02:03:28 PM

Is the new confusion a search? I didn't think it was...

Yes Confusion does involve searching the deck/discard pile for the card you name.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #14 on:** February 23, 2017, 03:44:26 PM »

It's kind of funny it doesn't say it on the card anywhere that you have to search out the card it just says name it and then remove it. I've seen people play it and then want to go through my hand my deck and my discard pile and remove Son of God which was in my hand the whole time. I don't think that's the way it should be played. In my opinion you should name the card and then have a judge come over and remove the card from the game that way no one searching out nothing because it doesn't say to do that anywhere on the card. It also doesn't say you can look at your opponent's hand or discard pile or deck. I guess since it says remove it we're taking it as the player who played the card gets to go through and find it to remove it which is kind of a double special ability where your opponent gets to look at all your cards. Not fun when it's played against you and everyone should play with this card in your deck

The Schaefer · « **Reply #15 on:** February 23, 2017, 04:04:37 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on February 23, 2017, 03:44:26 PM

It's kind of funny it doesn't say it on the card anywhere that you have to search out the card it just says name it and then remove it. I've seen people play it and then want to go through my hand my deck and my discard pile and I don't think that's the way it should be played. In my opinion you should name the card and then have a judge come over and remove the card from the game that way no one searching out nothing because it doesn't say to do that anywhere on the card. It also doesn't say you can look at your opponent's hand or discard pile or deck. I guess since it says remove it we're taking it as the player who played the card gets to go through and find it to remove it which is kind of a double-handed play where he gets to look at all your cards.

it's not double handed. It's the way the card was designed. It let's you see what the opponent has and let's you yourself verify that you are getting all the copies of whatever you named. You don't need a judge for that. If you really dislike confusion that much here are some options.

Preemptively stop it. (Via protection or FBTN cards)
Don't let them have initiative for it.
Use your own and name Confusion.
Use "negate last" cards.

Confusion is a very powerful card no doubt but there are plenty of ways to deal with it. Or you can just accept it exists and try to play smarter not harder.

Knowing the rules and key terms will help with trying to beat it. I'd say especially look up implied search. It's a bit confusing but it comes up often enough and makes cards like Hezekiah's Signet Ring really powerful. (It also stops Confusion from searching for the card in deck)

All in all Confusion isn't the problem it's the confusion and frustration from not knowing how to deal with it.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #16 on:** February 23, 2017, 04:19:45 PM »

I'm curious how would you ever use negate the last card played? You never have the initiative when confusion is played so they get to play a second card which will be the last card. And if you're referring to territory class negates then why wouldn't Covenant of Noah work? Like I said before if I have Son of God in my hand and they named Son of God and I show them my hand they don't need to look through my deck or discard pile because there's only one son of God. I've already accepted it that's why I play with it and everyone else should too.

The Guardian · « **Reply #17 on:** February 23, 2017, 04:48:57 PM »

Cards like Gam's Speech and Faith Among Corruption do not need normal initiative to be triggered therefore you can say "I'm using Gam's Speech" before the opponent plays another enhancement.

Covenant of Noah does not say "Negate last" therefore it defaults to enhancements in play.

The Schaefer · « **Reply #18 on:** February 23, 2017, 04:56:08 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on February 23, 2017, 04:19:45 PM

I'm curious how would you ever use negate the last card played? You never have the initiative when confusion is played so they get to play a second card which will be the last card. And if you're referring to territory class negates then why wouldn't Covenant of Noah work? Like I said before if I have Son of God in my hand and they named Son of God and I show them my hand they don't need to look through my deck or discard pile because there's only one son of God. I've already accepted it that's why I play with it and everyone else should too.

in t2 you can have multiple copies of cards. A great example is naming Panic demon in T2. Since there are large numbers of panic demons that can be in a deck. I think it's 4 of every evil brigade. So you do need to check the hand, deck, and discard. And letting a player verify that they got all the copies of a card, is that players responsibility you as the player can't just say that SOG is in my hand and remove it, the player who played the card has the responsibility of finding all copies of the named card and as such must check or not check the locations themselves.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #19 on:** February 23, 2017, 05:24:17 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on February 23, 2017, 04:48:57 PM

Cards like Gam's Speech and Faith Among Corruption do not need normal initiative to be triggered therefore you can say "I'm using Gam's Speech" before the opponent plays another enhancement.

Covenant of Noah does not say "Negate last" therefore it defaults to enhancements in play.

I am not trying to be a jerk but i am trying to understand. From the REG

General Description
A negate ability takes a previously completed ability and undoes the effect of that ability, and it keeps the
uncompleted activation of an ability from ever completing.

General Description
An interrupt ability temporarily undoes a previously completed ability or set of abilities and suspends them while
activating other abilities on the interrupt card before the suspended abilities reactivate.

now tell me how Covenant of Noah's interrupt ability is any different then Gam's Speech negate? What am I missing?

The Schaefer · « **Reply #20 on:** February 23, 2017, 05:51:00 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on February 23, 2017, 04:48:57 PM

Cards like Gam's Speech and Faith Among Corruption do not need normal initiative to be triggered therefore you can say "I'm using Gam's Speech" before the opponent plays another enhancement.

Covenant of Noah does not say "Negate last" therefore it defaults to enhancements in play.

Quote from: The Guardian on February 23, 2017, 04:48:57 PM

Cards like Gam's Speech and Faith Among Corruption do not need normal initiative to be triggered therefore you can say "I'm using Gam's Speech" before the opponent plays another enhancement.

Covenant of Noah does not say "Negate last" therefore it defaults to enhancements in play.

The last part of what The Guardian said is what you are missing. Negate last targets the last ability used of that type regardless of its location. Normally any effect that doesn't specify anot her location defaults to play meaning it can only effect cards/abilities in play. That is why Covenant of Noah doesn't work. It defaults to play and Confusion has removed itself from the game so it can't target it. Since Gam's speech is a negate last it doesn't default to play it targets the last ability used of that type regardless of the current location of that card. Make sense?

Jeremystair · « **Reply #21 on:** February 23, 2017, 06:12:38 PM »

well if that's how you want to let confusion play then you need to update the REG because that's not what it says "previously completed ability" it does not say a previously completed ability in play! how can you target a card that is not in the game anymore? or is treated as if not in the game in the first place with a "Negate last"? it's no longer in the game. it's does not make any sense to let one work and not the other.

thejambi · « **Reply #22 on:** February 23, 2017, 07:18:48 PM »

Questions:

Is Confusion ever "in play" (before it removes itself from the game)? Ergo, could it be stopped with Covenant of Noah at that time?

And, the REG states that interrupt and negate abilities target "abilities", not cards. How is that being handled here in the answers?

The Schaefer · « **Reply #23 on:** February 23, 2017, 07:29:38 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on February 23, 2017, 06:12:38 PM

well if that's how you want to let confusion play then you need to update the REG because that's not what it says "previously completed ability" it does not say a previously completed ability in play! how can you target a card that is not in the game anymore? or is treated as if not in the game in the first place with a "Negate last"? it's no longer in the game. it's does not make any sense to let one work and not the other.

ALL abilities default to play unless they say otherwise. Negate last is an instance of saying otherwise to some degree. The abilities are what are being targeted by the negates a negate last targets the last ability played of a card type so it doesnt have to be in play, a regular negate defaults to abilities in play since it has nothing to say otherwise. Sorry if you don't like or agree with it but that's how it's been ruled.

Covenant of Noah will never have the chance to negate Cofusion (Cow) since confusion removes itself from the game upon completion and since Covenant of Noah defaults to play and only is able to take effect after ALL of confusion's ability is complete it can never negate it. Gam's Speech can since it is a negate last effect so as long as the last effect was confusion the ability of confusiom can be negated by it.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #24 on:** February 23, 2017, 07:42:11 PM »

I don't think you're hearing what I'm saying I hope you're not trying to make feel bad or quit playing the game because I'm questioning some rules, with your sorry you don't like it comment. What I'm saying is there are too many little tiny intricate rules it's too hard for new people to play the game and explain everything to them that's probably why there aren't that many people that play the game, they get frustrated. Don't get me wrong I like the game it I've been playing it since the beginning it's just that we make rules up that sounds good at the time so we rule that way. And that's okay but somewhere down the line things change and we need to look at them just see what needs to be done if anything. And just because something is ruled that way doesn't mean it's the right way. We have had so many rule changes because someone questioned it. That's fine an interrupt can not interrupt a card that's no longer in the game but in my opinion neither should a "negate last". We need to update the REG because it sounds like we are targeting the ability and not the card

General Description
A negate ability takes a previously completed ability and undoes the effect of that ability, and it keeps the
uncompleted activation of an ability from ever completing.

General Description
An interrupt ability temporarily undoes a previously completed ability or set of abilities and suspends them while
activating other abilities on the interrupt card before the suspended abilities reactivate.

emonier · « **Reply #25 on:** February 23, 2017, 07:43:23 PM »

If it does not involve searching, the Hezekiah's Signet Ring does nothing.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #26 on:** February 23, 2017, 08:00:06 PM »

Oh but it does involve searching after you name the card you get to look through your opponents hand, discard pile and deck to remove the card

The Schaefer · « **Reply #27 on:** February 23, 2017, 08:09:48 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on February 23, 2017, 07:42:11 PM

I don't think you're hearing what I'm saying I hope you're not trying to make feel bad or quit playing the game because I'm questioning some rules, with your sorry you don't like it comment. What I'm saying is there are too many little tiny intricate rules it's too hard for new people to play the game and explain everything to them that's probably why there aren't that many people that play the game, they get frustrated. Don't get me wrong I like the game it I've been playing it since the beginning it's just that we make rules up that sounds good at the time so we rule that way. And that's okay but somewhere down the line things change and we need to look at them just see what needs to be done if anything. And just because something is ruled that way doesn't mean it's the right way. We have had so many rule changes because someone questioned it. That's fine an interrupt can not interrupt a card that's no longer in the game but in my opinion neither should a "negate last". We need to update the REG because it sounds like we are targeting the ability and not the card

General Description
A negate ability takes a previously completed ability and undoes the effect of that ability, and it keeps the
uncompleted activation of an ability from ever completing.

General Description
An interrupt ability temporarily undoes a previously completed ability or set of abilities and suspends them while
activating other abilities on the interrupt card before the suspended abilities reactivate.

I'm hearing what your saying and I'm definitely not trying to make you feel bad or quit playing. I've explained it to the best of my ability and you just seem to be missing the explanation. I'm sorry that it is confusing and that is something the elders to to improve but as is the ruling is what it is. The explanation is already there. I said the I'm sorry if you don't like it part because many people don't like the rule and thing arguing about it to everyone even after its been explained will somehow make the rule change which isn't the case. We're not here to argue or dishearten you but rather explain it to you. If you don't like the explanation or aren't satisfied with it I don't know what more to tell you is all. Not to seem rude. I try to explain things the best I can and offer ways to deal with problematic cards so that new players don't get disheartened. Rather than focus on intricate details that deter from the game I try to focus on what you can actually do to solve your situation. I wish you only the best and positive experiences in Redemption. Sorry if I offended you in some way.

Quote from: emonier on February 23, 2017, 07:43:23 PM

If it does not involve searching, the Hezekiah's Signet Ring does nothing.

Confusion(Cow) has an implied search ability. That's why I mentioned the term implied search in an earlier post. Because of this implied search Hezekiah's Signet Ring stops Confusion from checking (searching) for the named card in your deck or discard.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #28 on:** February 23, 2017, 08:18:40 PM »

Really I don't have a problem with the ruling whatsoever in fact it rules in my favor. The problem that I have is I have to come to the Forum to find out the rule instead of reading it and rule book. Because if I read it in the rulebook it says one thing and a ruling says something different that's all. Then yes you explained it better than anyone else here has been able to so I do understand but it just doesn't make sense for one and not the other. But that's okay with me because I'll use it to my advantage. Thanks

thejambi · « **Reply #29 on:** February 23, 2017, 08:23:08 PM »

Quote from: The Schaefer on February 23, 2017, 07:29:38 PM

Covenant of Noah ... only is able to take effect after ALL of confusion's ability is complete...

I think this answers the question I had, thanks. If I'm understanding, this is because of how interrupt (or negate) works. "An interrupt ability temporarily undoes a previously completed ability or set of abilities and suspends them while
activating other abilities on the interrupt card before the suspended abilities reactivate."

Ergo, abilities complete before they can be messed with.

Eragon5 · « **Reply #30 on:** February 23, 2017, 09:10:56 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on February 23, 2017, 08:18:40 PM

Really I don't have a problem with the ruling whatsoever in fact it rules in my favor. The problem that I have is I have to come to the Forum to find out the rule instead of reading it and rule book. Because if I read it in the rulebook it says one thing and a ruling says something different that's all. Then yes you explained it better than anyone else here has been able to so I do understand but it just doesn't make sense for one and not the other. But that's okay with me because I'll use it to my advantage. Thanks

I am completely with you on this one, my only real issue with redemption is that every three games or so I come across a bizarre situation where something can be ruled more than one way. It is super annoying to have to try and keep current with all the rulings that might not be apparent intuitively. However, the elders have started making changes that are streamlining the game and for that I am grateful. While things might not be perfect in the meantime I'm hoping that the need for knowing certain rulings like this will be cut to a minimum.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #31 on:** February 23, 2017, 09:16:36 PM »

Quote from: thejambi on February 23, 2017, 08:23:08 PM

Quote from: The Schaefer on February 23, 2017, 07:29:38 PM
Covenant of Noah ... only is able to take effect after ALL of confusion's ability is complete...

I think this answers the question I had, thanks. If I'm understanding, this is because of how interrupt (or negate) works. "An interrupt ability temporarily undoes a previously completed ability or set of abilities and suspends them while
activating other abilities on the interrupt card before the suspended abilities reactivate."

Ergo, abilities complete before they can be messed with.

Yes but that being said you are able to use a negate that is in your territory to stop confusion.

The Guardian · « **Reply #32 on:** February 23, 2017, 09:35:13 PM »

If it helps to clarify consider this:

If Covenant with Noah said "Interrupt and prevent the last enhancement played by an opponent" then it would work against Confusion.

However, it does not say that so the default targeting is "in play" as with any ability.

The Guardian · « **Reply #33 on:** February 23, 2017, 10:08:02 PM »

Quote from: Red on February 23, 2017, 09:56:44 PM

Also, if a Character or enhancment with a blanket negate all ability entered battle, it would negate confusion after the fact.

Um, no. Those abilities also default to play.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #34 on:** February 23, 2017, 10:08:44 PM »

I was about ready to say red done gone and opened a can of worms. I didn't think that would work. I guess interrupts don't work the way the definition of a real interrupt is. They Don't Really interrupt anything they go back and undo something. We all just assumed when it says interrupt it interrupts whatever is taking place but apparently it doesn't do that whatever is taking place has to take place and complete and then you go back and undo it so it should be called an undo and not an interrupt. Lol a true interrupts should be played any time to interrupt whatever is going on regardless of initiative but I know that's not how it's being played.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #35 on:** February 24, 2017, 05:56:57 AM »

That character would have to have a "negate ALL" ability to target out-of-play XD

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #36 on:** February 24, 2017, 06:10:51 AM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on February 23, 2017, 10:08:44 PM

I guess interrupts don't work the way the definition of a real interrupt is. They Don't Really interrupt anything they go back and undo something. We all just assumed when it says interrupt it interrupts whatever is taking place but apparently it doesn't do that whatever is taking place has to take place and complete and then you go back and undo it so it should be called an undo and not an interrupt. Lol a true interrupts should be played any time to interrupt whatever is going on regardless of initiative but I know that's not how it's being played.

"Interrupt" is a very common term among card games with complex mechanics (so, like, not YuGiOh and Pokemon). You're paying way too much attention to the negation aspect of interrupt that is often but not necessarily linked; interrupt does exactly what it says in English because it interrupts the gamestate at the time of the card's completion. If circumstances change during that interruption, it can end up looking like an "undo," but that's because of circumstances and no fault with using that word. And if we called it "undo" instead of "interrupt" there'd be people confused about why "undo the battle" doesn't undo the battle.

As to your larger problem, what you're doing is the equivalent of reading Mark 9:47 and then wondering why there aren't more one-eyed Christians. Elsewhere in the REG, there is a rule that all abilities only target cards in play unless otherwise specified. You had to come to the board for answers not because they aren't in the rules (although sometimes that's the case, this is not one of them), but because you didn't read the rules thoroughly enough.

That said, the rules structure is definitely too complicated and there is a large barrier to mastery - although the game can be played perfectly fine in most circumstances and its only high-end players that tend to create situations where interpretation is required rather than just a plain reading of the rules. The real problem is when the rules very clearly and explicitly say something, but the PTB just says nah (without changing the offending passage at all).

thejambi · « **Reply #37 on:** February 24, 2017, 07:07:18 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on February 24, 2017, 06:10:51 AM

Elsewhere in the REG, there is a rule that all abilities only target cards in play unless otherwise specified.

FYI all, it is stated as "Abilities that don’t specify where their targets must be located by default can only
target cards in play." So you should be able to find it by searching for some of that wording.

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Author Topic: Cloud confusion (Read 2316 times)