Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Gabe on August 15, 2011, 12:01:21 AM
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Starting in the 2011-2012 tournament season T2 deck building rules have been modified as follows:
2 color cards have increased from 1 per deck to 2 per deck. This includes the new good/evil cards from the 2011 tins.
Characters and Enhancements Single brigade cards have been decreased from 5 per deck to 4 per deck. This includes Characters, Enhancements and Sites.
Please visit this post (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/redemption-official-rules/rule-changesclarifications-for-2011-2012-tournament-season/msg434385/#new) to see all the changes and clarifications for the 2011-2012 tournament season.
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Is the 4 instead of 5 a planned rule going forward before I add nearly a copy of everything to my stock for sale, or is this a trial rule?
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All new rulings that Gabe is announcing tonight are planned to be the rules going forward. There are a few more minor discussions going on that will be posted in the next week or two as well. But I think its safe to say that you can go ahead and add that copy to your stock - Most of the Elders think that decreasing the potency of T2 by 20% will really help on those cards that are considered to be close to broken.
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Are no SA sites still limited to 5 per deck?
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I believe so yes. I was under the impression that we were decreasing them to 4 as well. But perhaps it was just characters and enhancements as Gabe posted, I'll have to re-read the discussion.
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Nothing was discussed about changing the limit for no SA Sites in T2.
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Wonderful, I like that :)
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So, can we get a new list of all the card limits in T2 for clarification?
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So, can we get a new list of all the card limits in T2 for clarification?
Sure:
Dominants, Multicolor (3+ brigade) Characters, and enhancements: 1 per deck
Lost Souls/Sites with SA's: 1 per 50
Dual-Color Characters/Enhancements/Covenants/Curses: 2 per deck
Artifacts, Fortresses, Single color Covenants/Curses: 3 per deck
Single color Characters and Enhancements: 4 per deck
Lost Souls/Sites with no SA's: 5 per deck.
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How do identical names work for deck building purposes. Can I have joseph before pharoah 4x blue and 4x white in one type 2 deck?
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They are not the same brigade and they don't have the same art. The only thing in common is the name. That means you can have both.
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So, can we get a new list of all the card limits in T2 for clarification?
Sure:
Dominants, Multicolor (3+ brigade) Characters, and enhancements: 1 per deck
Lost Souls/Sites with SA's: 1 per 50
Dual-Color Characters/Enhancements/Covenants/Curses: 2 per deck
Artifacts, Fortresses, Single color Covenants/Curses: 3 per deck
Single color Characters and Enhancements: 4 per deck
Lost Souls/Sites with no SA's: 5 per deck.
Would you please also make a list like this for type 1 (even though there are no changes)?
This is really helpful for some of the newer players in our playgroup.
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This could make it slightly easier to play type II at tournaments. =)
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So, can we get a new list of all the card limits in T2 for clarification?
Sure:
Dominants, Multicolor (3+ brigade) Characters, and enhancements: 1 per deck
Lost Souls/Sites with SA's: 1 per 50
Dual-Color Characters/Enhancements/Covenants/Curses: 2 per deck
Artifacts, Fortresses, Single color Covenants/Curses: 3 per deck
Single color Characters and Enhancements: 4 per deck
Lost Souls/Sites with no SA's: 5 per deck.
Could I petition to have the last of these rules (no-SA Sites and Souls) either eliminated (any number up to the max) or made to follow the Characters and Enhancements limit? I ask because that limit has always seemed rather silly to me, and changing it in either way I suggest would eliminate having the changes to characters/enhancements end up creating a new category limit. Simplification is a good thing.
It is not like non-SA sites and souls were intentionally limited in the past. They just kinda fell into the "No more than five of everything else." I never realized until this post that non-SA lost souls were subject to the five per deck rule, and I know I am not alone in this. (For and year and a half I played a site deck with 14 of the same non-SA site without it failing deck check in.) Seriously, did any of the elders/playtesters even think of non-SA sites/souls prior to RedemptionAggie asking the question?
If anyone need me to do it, I can look through to sse if an unlimited change would break anything. The only possibility that comes to mind immediately is Egypt with Building Egypt.
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Gates of Samaria + Samaria. Nuff said?
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We're probably going to need to pay our deck-checkers going forward. :P
I know I'll be requesting players to organize their decks for check-in differently than previous years. It will be a lot easier if they are sorted in the same order ProfA lists them with their limits.
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Gates of Samaria + Samaria. Nuff said?
A 50 card T1 deck can have 7 Samaria sites. A T2 deck (if allowed) could have 14+ Samaria sites in a 100+ card deck. Same ratios, but one is legal and one is not.
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Gates of Samaria + Samaria. Nuff said?
A 50 card T1 deck can have 7 Samaria sites. A T2 deck (if allowed) could have 14+ Samaria sites in a 100+ card deck. Same ratios, but one is legal and one is not.
Actually, because of all the *special* erratas that have been doled out due to brokenness in T2 that inadvertently impacted T1 players, I'm not all that opposed to taking one in the shorts for this one.
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Gates of Samaria + Samaria. Nuff said?
Oh, ok. As long as all of this was well discussed ahead of time (as opposed to everyone in the know completely forgetting about non-SA sites and souls until Aggie asked about it).
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Is there a similar combination of cards that necessitate the rule being there for no-SA LSs?
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Gates of Samaria + Samaria. Nuff said?
A 50 card T1 deck can have 7 Samaria sites. A T2 deck (if allowed) could have 14+ Samaria sites in a 100+ card deck. Same ratios, but one is legal and one is not.
My 154 card Type 1 deck can have 21 Samaria sites. :)
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Gates of Samaria + Samaria. Nuff said?
A 50 card T1 deck can have 7 Samaria sites. A T2 deck (if allowed) could have 14+ Samaria sites in a 100+ card deck. Same ratios, but one is legal and one is not.
My 154 card Type 1 deck can have 21 Samaria sites. :)
That means you can increase your evil King of Israel by 126/126. :)
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That means you can increase your evil King of Israel by 126/126. :)
My Strong Angel is way scared at the thought of that.
Kirk
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JMHartz do you play Type 2 competitively? Babylonian Banquet Hall/Babylon's, let alone Threatened Lives. gabe already hit Gates of Samaria/Samaria's. Nothing wrong with 5 max per no SA site. If anything I would go down to 4 and remake Samaria/Babylon site with a different brigade/artwork so 8 could go in a deck. But I can see the reasoning behind 4 of each no SA site (and lost soul) due to consistency.
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JMHartz do you play Type 2 competitively? Babylonian Banquet Hall/Babylon's, let alone Threatened Lives. gabe already hit Gates of Samaria/Samaria's. Nothing wrong with 5 max per no SA site. If anything I would go down to 4 and remake Samaria/Babylon site with a different brigade/artwork so 8 could go in a deck. But I can see the reasoning behind 4 of each no SA site (and lost soul) due to consistency.
I really wasn't trying to give an opinion, I was just pointing out a fact. In a 100 card T1 deck you can have 2 BBH and 12 Babylons or 14 Samaria sites. In a T2 deck you can't. And I wasn't giving an opinion because I don't play T2, therefore I'm not qualified to.
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Gates of Samaria + Samaria. Nuff said?
OH YEA! Should have seen the damage I did last night. So far 4 is enough. :)
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With the new T2 deck changes--
How many Cove o death can I have? It's a curse (3 allowed) and 2 colors (2 allowed).
Thanks!
Covenant with Death (FF2)
Type: Curse • Brigade: Pale Green/Brown • Ability: 2 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate characters. Restrict players from playing Enhancements unless a character is opposed in battle. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Isaiah 28:15 • Availability: Faith of our Fathers Extended booster packs (None)
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With the new T2 deck changes--
How many Cove o death can I have? It's a curse (3 allowed) and 2 colors (2 allowed).
Thanks!
Covenant with Death (FF2)
Type: Curse • Brigade: Pale Green/Brown • Ability: 2 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate characters. Restrict players from playing Enhancements unless a character is opposed in battle. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Isaiah 28:15 • Availability: Faith of our Fathers Extended booster packs (None)
I believe it would be just two, but I'm not actually sure if we decided on that 100%
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If a card can fall under multiple criteria for limiting the number of copies per deck, apply the most stringent policy, in this case the fact that Cov O' Death is 2-color trumps the fact that it is a curse, so you can only have two copies.
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Just to check, can I now use 2 copies of Philosophy or any other evil/good enhancement in a T2 deck now?
Kirk
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Just to check, can I now use 2 copies of Philosophy or any other evil/good enhancement in a T2 deck now?
Kirk
No. Philosophy has more than 2 brigades, and so is still governed by the 1-per-deck rule. Only cards with 2 brigades (regardless of good or evil) qualify for the new 2-per-deck rule
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Just to check, can I now use 2 copies of Philosophy or any other evil/good enhancement in a T2 deck now?
Kirk
Not Philosophy, since that is more than two brigades. You can use two copies of any character or enhancement that is exactly two brigades, whether that be two good brigades, two evil brigades, or one good brigade and one evil brigade.
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Are you sure you want Kirk knowing such things? :-X Show'em how to do it Mr. Dennison!
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Just to check, can I now use 2 copies of Philosophy or any other evil/good enhancement in a T2 deck now?
Kirk
Not Philosophy, since that is more than two brigades. You can use two copies of any character or enhancement that is exactly two brigades, whether that be two good brigades, two evil brigades, or one good brigade and one evil brigade.
So, no Seeker or Soldier of God? ...not fair.
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Ok thanks. Philosophy was a bad example. :)
Kirk
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Hey,
Are no SA sites still limited to 5 per deck?
Nothing was discussed about changing the limit for no SA Sites in T2.
I re-read the discussion among the playtesters. The entire discussion was talking about "1 brigade cards" becoming 4 per deck. That would include sites. It was only stated as characters and enhancements in the final statement of the change, which I believe was an oversight.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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So your trying to tell me only 4 Samaria sites allowed in a type 2 deck?
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So your trying to tell me only 4 Samaria sites allowed in a type 2 deck?
That's correct. Previously it was 5, and now it's 4. It's really not a big deal.
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Unless Nazzy is down...
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Previously it was 5, and now it's 4. It's really not a big deal.
Oh it's definitely a big deal...
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So your trying to tell me only 4 Samaria sites allowed in a type 2 deck?
No. If you re-read the post...It was stated as characters and enhancements in the final statement of the change
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Hey,
It was stated as characters and enhancements in the final statement of the change
Please do not quote me out of context.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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I re-read the discussion among the playtesters. The entire discussion was talking about "1 brigade cards" becoming 4 per deck. That would include sites. It was only stated as characters and enhancements in the final statement of the change, which I believe was an oversight.
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Hey,
Please do not quote me.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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? im confused
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Bottom Line 4 sites
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Bottom Line 4 sites
No this is the bottom line.
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi54.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg101%2Fdragonlink1990%2FBottomLine.png&hash=b33c4d3d2d00f627d45b95dd8c7cb1ef50c9b03f)
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Bottom Line 4 sites
No, the bottom lines are two-fold:
1) We have two elders (Gabe and Tim) who disagree on the number of sites allowed in a T2 deck. So this needs to go back to the elders for a final ruling.
2) It appears I was correct in my guess that no one gave a thought to non-SA sites and souls (specifically) until Redemption Aggie brought up the question.
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Bottom Line 4 sites
No, the bottom lines are two-fold:
1) We have two elders (Gabe and Tim) who disagree on the number of sites allowed in a T2 deck. So this needs to go back to the elders for a final ruling.
2) It appears I was correct in my guess that no one gave a thought to non-SA sites and souls (specifically) until Redemption Aggie brought up the question.
We are indeed discussing the number of sites allowed. I'm not honestly sure which way it will go, but I believe that currently a majority are in favor of 4 per deck.
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Tim is correct. I had time to read over our discussion tonight and see that single brigade Sites with no SA should be limited to 4 per deck in T2. While others had considered that the change would impact Sites in addition to Characters and Enhancements, I overlooked that fact and reported the change incorrectly. All apologies. The original post has been edited.
As RDT points out we are discussing it and might possibly draw a different conclusion, but for now expect a limit of 4 as that's what was originally decided.
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If the discussion was about single brigade cards, what does that mean for no SA LS? Do they really need a limit?
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No, I highly doubt that we'd limit them - I don't believe that anything references lost souls by book - There's a few that reference by testament - But there's enough spread there that it wouldn't matter if we limited them. If we print something in the future that says 'Protect III John Lost Souls from rescue' then perhaps it would be a problem, but I don't forsee us doing that...
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No, I highly doubt that we'd limit them - I don't believe that anything references lost souls by book - There's a few that reference by testament - But there's enough spread there that it wouldn't matter if we limited them. If we print something in the future that says 'Protect III John Lost Souls from rescue' then perhaps it would be a problem, but I don't forsee us doing that...
I don't think that there are currently any 3rd John Lost Souls right now so that wouldn't be too bad right now. I agree that there should not be a limit of multiple of the same no SA Lost Soul.