Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Minister Polarius on May 08, 2011, 01:08:53 AM
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Cards gain CBN or not when they are played, correct?
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I was going to say correct, but then as I was typing my reply I got to thinking and I honestly don't really like that rule.
If I play a random enhancement say a red one that places itself in territory to do something nasty every upkeep, and then play another enhancement that says 'red enhancements cannot be negated' It would feel odd for you to then have initiative and negate that territory card.
I would say its safe to say that enhancments cannot lose CBN status after they're played, but to say that they can't gain it feels a little odd to me.
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Follow-up, when are cards played? This is a very important question. Determining whether cards are played only when they leave hand, or if placing them in battle from territory, or every time their SA activates has a big impact on a few things I'm wanting to try.
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In all honesty Pol, I don't know. Discussion on 'Play' has stalled for the moment on the Elder side, but we were looking at something similar to this as our definition: "A card is considered "played" when its special ability activates, or when it is put into play, except by a "place" special ability or a "holds" identifier." But that was about 5 pages ago, I think we've been trying to see if that messes anything up.... Also, a card can be played more than once - A Character for instance is played when you put it in your territory, and then again when it enters battle.
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Add to that "or enters battle," otherwise a Hero with an SA would be played when attacking, but not a no-SA Hero.
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Hey,
Cannot be Negated status can be dynamic, so it can be gained and/or lost after the card is initially played. Cannot be Negated status is not retroactive, so losing or gaining CBN status does not change how the card was affected by a prevent or negate card already played. Trap of the Devil is actually CBP but it was the guinea pig on the issue, so the precedent on the issue would relate to it.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Massive rule change. This needs to be announced in a more public way than as a reply.
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Hey,
Cannot be Negated status can be dynamic, so it can be gained and/or lost after the card is initially played. Cannot be Negated status is not retroactive, so losing or gaining CBN status does not change how the card was affected by a prevent or negate card already played. Trap of the Devil is actually CBP but it was the guinea pig on the issue, so the precedent on the issue would relate to it.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
can i find documentation on this?
where is it located in REG/Rulebook?
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Hey,
Cannot be Negated status can be dynamic, so it can be gained and/or lost after the card is initially played. Cannot be Negated status is not retroactive, so losing or gaining CBN status does not change how the card was affected by a prevent or negate card already played. Trap of the Devil is actually CBP but it was the guinea pig on the issue, so the precedent on the issue would relate to it.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
This is news to me, unless I'm not understanding you properly. A card either is, or is not, CBN when the ability it active. If something grants CBN status later, it does not retroactively apply. Is that what you're saying or am I missing something?
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Maybe Tim is speaking about a situation like Asherah Pole. If someone attacks with an NT hero banded to an OT hero, and I block, then my EE are CBN. But if I play an EE that kills the OT hero, and still have initiative, then would my next EE also be CBN? It would seem that the CBN status of my EEs is dynamic like Tim is talking about, based on the changing situation in battle.
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Hey,
You attack me with Elhanan. I block with Ahab and play Scorn of Michal to band in Korah. Attacker then has initiative and plays Blessings. Does Blessings negate Scorn of Michal? When Scorn of Michal is played it does not have CBN status. After Korah's ability activates Scorn of Michal does have CBN status. Since Blessings happens after Korah's ability activated, Scorn of Michal isn't negated.
Alternatively,
You attack me with Elhanan. I block with Ahab and play Scorn of Michal to band in Beast from the Earth. Attacker then plays Blessings. Defender uses Unknown Nation to add Korah to battle. Does Blessings negate Scorn of Michal? When Scorn of Michal is played it does not have CBN status. Blessings then negates it. Korah then activates and gives Scorn of Michal CBN status. That status does not apply retroactively, so while Scorn of Michael cannot be negated from here on, the fact that Blessings already negated it doesn't change. If Stiff-Necked were then played to negate Blessings, Scorn of Michal would be reactivated, and would then be CBN for the rest of battle.
That's the way I see it. What parts do you disagree with me on?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
You attack me with Elhanan. I block with Ahab and play Scorn of Michal to band in Korah. Attacker then has initiative and plays Blessings. Does Blessings negate Scorn of Michal? When Scorn of Michal is played it does not have CBN status. After Korah's ability activates Scorn of Michal does have CBN status. Since Blessings happens after Korah's ability activated, Scorn of Michal isn't negated.
I actually remember it being ruled the other way (though it was a long time ago). It was a question about whether bringing Korah and King of Tyrus in with the same banding card was possible without negating the banding card. At the time, the rule was that CBN status had to be present at the time the card was played, or it never would, and thus KoT would negate the banding card. I never really agreed with that ruling, but I thought that's what it was. Has that been changed?
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Prof explains it the way I understand it also. I got that impression from this portion of the REG:
If a card does not have “cannot be negated” status when it is played, then it cannot gain it later.
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that was my understanding as well
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I agree with that.
Prof Underwood's example is dealing with conditions for whether a card will be CBN, changing during battle.
So if I have Asherah Pole active and block Thomas with Korah then my enhancements are not CBN except for banding so I play Lurking to band in Zimri and discard. My opponent plays Reach and a banding card to bring in Moses to negate Zimri but not the enhancements since those were CBN. I can now play Korah's Rebellion since the condition for it to be CBN is now met. So whether you meet the conditions is dynamic but the individual abilities are set to be CBN or not when played.
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Polarius needs to bring up the example with the new set behind closed doors.