Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Master_Chi on August 23, 2010, 03:21:44 PM
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Since I like to use gray, which has the most "capture" abilities, 1) when I capture a Silver Hero, for it to bypass Chamber of Angels, do I have to use specific capture cards?
EX:
Rescue TSA. Block Naaman w/ N's Horses/Chariots, play Snare.
In this example, Snare specifically says to treat the captured as a Lost Soul. 2) Is this different than doing the exact same thing above, but playing Demonic Snare or another "just capture" enhancement?
3) What happens to captured characters that are shuffled by the Shuffler LS? Are they still considered Lost Souls, or do they return to being Heroes when drawn?
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1) Chamber of Angels is for discarded angels only.
2) I think all captures are instantly LS's, it just matters which LoB they're supposed to go into.
3) They're heros again.
Daniel
:thumbup:
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Snare's "treat as a Lost Soul" stuff is just there because it's an older card - it spells out what capturing actually means. By now capturing is a very standard ability so they don't define it on every card anymore. Demonic Snare's "Capture a Hero." does the same thing as Snare's long discourse.
Any time a card enters a deck, hand, or discard pile, it returns to face value. A captured character shuffled into its owner's deck is once again a Hero/EC. A Paul returned to hand becomes Saul when it's played again. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
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Though if you plan on doing a lot of capturing, check out Raiders Camp (http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Raiders'_Camp)
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Though if you plan on doing a lot of capturing, check out Raiders Camp (http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Raiders'_Camp)
Raider's Camp BAD for Hero-lite.
1) Chamber of Angels is for discarded angels only.
Should've been more clear, I mean if I use Burial or Barabbas' SA, do they still go to Chamber or just to d/c pile as LS's?
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That one i'm not sure about man. Someone will have to answer that one.
Daniel
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Elder(s), please?
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I'm not an Elder, but this is what I would rule:
Chamber has a Play As that states, "If holder's angel is being discarded, heal and place it here instead. After two turns, return Hero to the top of your deck." I highlighted the word "heal" because characters being treated as Lost Souls can not be healed (that I am aware of). Now, if they can be healed, then I would say Chamber would get them, because captured heroes may no longer be heroes, but they keep their "angel" identifier.
Chamber of Angels (AW)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set this fortress aside. If holder's angel is being discarded, place it here instead. After two turns, return Hero to the top of your draw pile. • Play As: If holder's angel is being discarded, heal and place it here instead. After two turns, return Hero to the top of your deck. Chamber of Angels may hold any number of angels. • Identifiers: Play to set-aside area. • Verse: Revelation 4:8 • Availability: Angel Wars booster packs (Rare)
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I was thinking that since they are considered Lost Souls, both Burial and Barabbas would be able to d/c them without the captured going to Chamber, since they are no longer angels, but LS's.... Although Barabbas treats them as "captured Heroes".
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"captured heroes", which would be treated as LS anyway.
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Actually, this is tricky. The Eratta on AW is unnecessary and should probably be deleted along with the other stuff wrong with the REG.
What is interesting about the SA is that a card only needs to be an Angel to go there (something a Captured Angel still is), but has to be a Hero to get out (something a Captured Angel is not). Currently, by the rules, an Angel that is Captured and in its owner's Land of Bondage, (since if it's in an opponent's Land of Bondage, he controls it and it is therefore not "your" Angel) when Discarded, goes to Chamber and just gets stuck there.
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Actually, this is tricky. The Eratta on AW is unnecessary and should probably be deleted along with the other stuff wrong with the REG.
What is interesting about the SA is that a card only needs to be an Angel to go there (something a Captured Angel still is), but has to be a Hero to get out (something a Captured Angel is not). Currently, by the rules, an Angel that is Captured and in its owner's Land of Bondage, (since if it's in an opponent's Land of Bondage, he controls it and it is therefore not "your" Angel) when Discarded, goes to Chamber and just gets stuck there.
The logic here is sound, so I am inclined to agree. Interesting.
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Creating more unnecessary clutter, a la Doubt. Why is it still classified as an angel?
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Creating more unnecessary clutter, a la Doubt. Why is it still classified as an angel?
Might have something to do with cards don't lose their identifiers, just their name, abilities, and SA's....
What is interesting about the SA is that a card only needs to be an Angel to go there (something a Captured Angel still is), but has to be a Hero to get out (something a Captured Angel is not). Currently, by the rules, an Angel that is Captured and in its owner's Land of Bondage, (since if it's in an opponent's Land of Bondage, he controls it and it is therefore not "your" Angel) when Discarded, goes to Chamber and just gets stuck there.
That is quite interesting.
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Creating more unnecessary clutter, a la Doubt. Why is it still classified as an angel?
Might have something to do with cards don't lose their identifiers, just their name, abilities, and SA's....
Captured characters retain all parts of their identities, including name. For example, It's been previously ruled that if you have Jacob in play, then you capture your opponent's Jacob, you must immediately discard 1 because you cannot have 2 in your territory.
However, if converted, Heretics and Magicians have their identifiers magically disappear.
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I would still argue that a captured angel can not be targeted by Chamber of Angels because of the "heal" special ability in the "Play As."
Instant Special Abilities > Restore Life, Heal, or Release > Special Conditions
• You can’t heal someone that is removed from the game, captured, set aside, or converted.
The "heal" ability overrides the "discard" ability, which is why healed characters retain gained abilities.
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Play-as is not Errata. The bit about healing can be disregarded since it's not an errata and changes the card.
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So captured Silver brigade Heroes targeted for discard will go to Chamber, but be stuck until the game ends?
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So captured Silver brigade Heroes targeted for discard will go to Chamber, but be stuck until the game ends?
Or until they are shuffled in somehow (ANB) or returned to bottom of draw pile (Prince of the Air). But like Pol said, it won't happen often, because the Angel has to be discarded from your territory. If discarded from your opponent's territory, you don't have control of the Angel, so it is not "yours" and it goes to the discard pile. So unless someone buries it from your territory, it doesn't go to Chamber.
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So captured Silver brigade Heroes targeted for discard will go to Chamber, but be stuck until the game ends?
Or until they are shuffled in somehow (ANB) or returned to bottom of draw pile (Prince of the Air). But like Pol said, it won't happen often, because the Angel has to be discarded from your territory. If discarded from your opponent's territory, you don't have control of the Angel, so it is not "yours" and it goes to the discard pile. So unless someone buries it from your territory, it doesn't go to Chamber.
I am the one doing the capturing/discarding, so if I discard my opponent's captured Angels, they go to the discard pile?
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So captured Silver brigade Heroes targeted for discard will go to Chamber, but be stuck until the game ends?
Or until they are shuffled in somehow (ANB) or returned to bottom of draw pile (Prince of the Air). But like Pol said, it won't happen often, because the Angel has to be discarded from your territory. If discarded from your opponent's territory, you don't have control of the Angel, so it is not "yours" and it goes to the discard pile. So unless someone buries it from your territory, it doesn't go to Chamber.
I am the one doing the capturing/discarding, so if I discard my opponent's captured Angels, they go to the discard pile?
Yes. In order for an Angel to go to your Chamber, you must own AND control it. Otherwise they go to the discard pile.
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Happy timez that I found a way around recurring TSA and Captain.........
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So do we disregard the play as for cards? Is chamber considered a heal card?
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So do we disregard the play as for cards? Is chamber considered a heal card?
No. Only when the Play As should be termed errata. This card should not have the Play As. Chamber should not be considered a healing card.
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So do we disregard the play as for cards?
No. Only when the Play As should be termed errata. This card should not have the Play As.
Well, that makes things so much easier for hosts. Just go to the REG, look for a Play-As, but disregard the Play-As occasionally. Thank you for clearing that up.
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So if its an instead ability then how does it work with I am Holy since the cost isn't being paid?
I Am Holy (AW)
Type: Covenant • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 5 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: Upon activation, holder may discard a good card from hand to make an opponent discard an evil card from hand. If opponent has no evil cards in hand, opponent must reveal hand. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Leviticus 19:2
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So if its an instead ability then how does it work with I am Holy since the cost isn't being paid?
I Am Holy (AW)
Type: Covenant • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 5 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: Upon activation, holder may discard a good card from hand to make an opponent discard an evil card from hand. If opponent has no evil cards in hand, opponent must reveal hand. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Leviticus 19:2
The cost IS being paid, but if you discard an Angel with Chamber up, the Angel ends up in Chamber instead of the discard pile.
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so cov. w/ eden and Suicidal Swine Stampede work too? same thing right?
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so cov. w/ eden and Suicidal Swine Stampede work too? same thing right?
I believe so. But I'm no elder.
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so on this same premise, if a card states:
"If opponent redeems a soul, you may _______." would still activate if you have Judas' Plot active and place thier SoG on bottom of deck (assuming no NJ was played)?
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so on this same premise, if a card states:
"If opponent redeems a soul, you may _______." would still activate if you have Judas' Plot active and place thier SoG on bottom of deck (assuming no NJ was played)?
Yes. That's why there is the big controversy on what happens when SoG and NJ are played together.
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So if its an instead ability then how does it work with I am Holy since the cost isn't being paid?
Sir Nobody made a comment about the cost not being paid, and I am not aware that any other Elder overruled him. Of course, the other Elders may not have seen that comment, or may have had no opinion.
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So if its an instead ability then how does it work with I am Holy since the cost isn't being paid?
Sir Nobody made a comment about the cost not being paid, and I am not aware that any other Elder overruled him. Of course, the other Elders may not have seen that comment, or may have had no opinion.
We have, but the issue of 'instead' abilities was being discussed, but hasn't been for awhile. It will probably take a decision by Rob for it to be resolved. Hopefully it can be addressed soon.
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That's fine. I just wanted to make sure that the "cost" issue was not treated flippantly.
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so as of now-
IaH + Chamber still work? and/also
Cov. w/ Eden + Suicidal Swine Stampede?
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As far as I know, but again, I'm not an elder....
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Hey,
So if its an instead ability then how does it work with I am Holy since the cost isn't being paid?
Sir Nobody made a comment about the cost not being paid, and I am not aware that any other Elder overruled him. Of course, the other Elders may not have seen that comment, or may have had no opinion.
Sorry, I should have posted earlier and retracted my comment. After making it other players made some comments that made me reconsider my position. We are still discussing the issue on the private side of the board and have not come to a consensus yet, but the leaning is that I am Holy will continue to work with Chamber of Angels.
Ultimately I believe (me as a player not me as an elder) Covenant with Eden will not work with Suicidal Swine Stampede. The reason being is that I believe Covenant with Eden needs a new play as that will include the ability "protect all characters from removal from the game." The instead ability will probably not stop the cost from being paid but that protect ability would. (Although we'll see what ends up happening with the play as for Covenant with Eden because it's one of those cards that probably couldn't have been worded more poorly if we tried.)
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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So Cov of eden will no longer discard characters targeted for removal?
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Hey,
So Cov of eden will no longer discard characters targeted for removal?
If I were giving Covenant of Eden play as it would be, "Protect characters from being removed from the game. If a character is being removed from the game, discard that character instead." Which then means that the first ability protects against the trigger for the second ability. So the second ability would only work if the first ability was interrupted/negated but the second ability wasn't. Which is really bad card design, but that's what the card says.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
So Cov of eden will no longer discard characters targeted for removal?
If I were giving Covenant of Eden play as it would be, "Protect characters from being removed from the game. If a character is being removed from the game, discard that character instead." Which then means that the first ability protects against the trigger for the second ability. So the second ability would only work if the first ability was interrupted/negated but the second ability wasn't. Which is really bad card design, but that's what the card says.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
So if theres a card that negates all good protect abilities, SSS will still work with Cov of Eden up?