Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Master KChief on November 29, 2009, 02:15:27 AM
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my opponent captures my hero. he then uses burial on it. can i use a healing card like brass serpent or i am healing to heal it back to play during the same turn it was buried?
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Yes - I believe so, because everything resets in the discard pile, so It becomes a disarded hero at that point. (I think)
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Except the point of a Heal card is it prevents the reset. I don't think it works because it's not a hero when it dies.
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except a healing card can be used anytime during a turn, even a phase after the hero is discarded. that doesnt sound like a prevent to me, but rather a card that is looking for a hero that was placed in a discard pile that turn.
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except a healing card can be used anytime during a turn, even a phase after the hero is discarded. that doesnt sound like a prevent to me, but rather a card that is looking for a hero that was placed in a discard pile that turn.
+1
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except a healing card can be used anytime during a turn, even a phase after the hero is discarded. that doesnt sound like a prevent to me, but rather a card that is looking for a hero that was placed in a discard pile that turn.
except a healing card also brings back weapon class enhancements the hero was wearing, so I'm not sure if the hero was ever actually in the discard pile at all.
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if they were discarded in a previous phase before the healing card was used, and they're not residing in a discard pile, then where are they?
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I'm pretty sure discarded captured heroes are not able to be healed with hero-healing cards. I don't know the exact resoning behind that, but I'm almost positive that's how it's ruled.
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if they were discarded in a previous phase before the healing card was used, and they're not residing in a discard pile, then where are they?
Purgatory?
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if they were discarded in a previous phase before the healing card was used, and they're not residing in a discard pile, then where are they?
Good question.
All I know is that a warrior class character retains his weapon no matter when he is healed. I am not sure how that occurs since being placed in the discard pile disassociates weapon from bearer.
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A Heal card is like a reset to the status they use to be. Since capture isn't a heal-able status, even if you COULD heal them you'd be returning them as a Lost Soul. But, then you'd be healing a lost soul and not a hero, so the heal card wouldn't have a target anymore.
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...or, heal cards simply heal heroes that are in the discard pile that were discarded up to that point during that turn. that seems like the simpler explanation.
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Instant Abilities > Restore Life, Heal, or Release > Special Conditions
• You can’t heal someone that is removed from the game, captured, set aside, or converted.
Based on the above quote, it is clear that you can not heal a captured character. Since healed characters retain their abilities, it is also clear that they were not in the discard pile (for ruling purposes). The heal card is effectively making the character never have gone to the discard pile in the first place - a distortion of the time/space continuum.
I would agree with those that say you can not use a heal enhancement on a captured character that was discarded.
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um, that reg quote is referring to heroes that are currently captured, not heroes that have gone to the discard pile thereafter..
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But when the card was discard it was NOT a hero. Thus the hero wasn't discarded during that turn, so the heal card can't target it.
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thats one way to see it, but you could also see it as:
1. hero was a hero at some point during the turn.
2. hero is now in the discard pile.
3. you can heal said hero in discard pile.
it just depends on how you define heal, i guess.
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But that would not explain why healed characters keep their gained abilities. Cards in the discard pile reset, but healed cards do not. Therefore they effectively must not have been in the discard pile. Heal cards target cards about to be discarded. They never were discarded.
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Then you can never heal anything - because everything happens instantly - In fact it used to be the case that certain healing cards (Based on wording) couldn't heal from CM because CM happened instantly - now that everything resolves instantly all healing cards have had minor rule tweaks so they all work the same. (Somebody like Tim can confirm this for me.... I'm pretty sure thats the deal.)
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if a hero is discarded during my prep phase, and i wait until my battle phase to use brass serpent to heal it...again, where was the hero? was it not in a discard pile? was it not discarded? obviously, the hero was discarded.
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Purgatory?
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i would be content with that if only i could find 'purgatory' in the REG... :)
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Purgatory:
An imaginary place where cards that still have a chance to interrupt their removal from battle, characters that could still be potentially healed and their weapons, and multiple dominants played at the exact same time go.
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heh, i like it.
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Purgatory:
An imaginary place where cards that still have a chance to interrupt their removal from battle, characters that could still be potentially healed and their weapons, and multiple dominants played at the exact same time go.
It's in the new REG (and it may be years until you can prove otherwise), ;)
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Hey,
But that would not explain why healed characters keep their gained abilities. Cards in the discard pile reset, but healed cards do not. Therefore they effectively must not have been in the discard pile. Heal cards target cards about to be discarded. They never were discarded.
Healed characters don't keep their gained abilities. They get discarded and once they hit the discard pile they lose their gained abilities. When they are healed, they get their gained abilities back.
As far as the issue in general, you can't heal any character. You can only heal a character if: (1) it is poisoned, (2) it is diseased, (3) it is being discarded, or (4) it was discarded at some previous point during the current turn. In other words, a healing ability can only target: (1) a poisoned character, (2) a diseased character, (3) a character that is being discarded, or (4) a character that was discarded at some previous point during the current turn.
After Burial is played on a captured character the captured character was discarded at some previous point during the current turn, but a captured character is not a character. So the card does not qualify as a character that was discarded at some previous point during the current turn, and thus cannot be targeted by the healing ability.
This is just my opinion on the matter, and I'm not even very confident in my opinion in part because it goes against my general guideline for answering healing questions. But that's what my gut says.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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(4) a character that was discarded at some previous point during the current turn.
Right - And Characters reset to face value in the discard pile, so character 'A' which was a captured character is not reset in the discard pile to just your plain-jane character. Which means that it now qualifies as a character discarded at a previous point - so condition 4 evaluates as true and you can heal it.
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But, when it was discarded it was NOT a character, it was a CAPTURED character. There's a difference.
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But, when it was discarded it was NOT a character, it was a CAPTURED character. There's a difference.
Even though it wasn't when it is discarded, it is when it is in the discard pile. It resets and then you can heal it the same turn.
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Hey,
Even though it wasn't when it is discarded, it is when it is in the discard pile. It resets and then you can heal it the same turn.
You can only heal it if it's healable. To be healable it has to be discarded as a hero. It wasn't discarded as a hero, so it's not healable, so you can't target it with a healing ability.
Also, characters retain any gained or altered affects when they are healed. So if I'm set aside with Worship of Milcom become 1/1 am discarded then healed, I'm still 1/1. If I'm gathered, get discarded then healed, I'm still gathered. I've I'm gold shielded to silver, I get discarded then healed I'm still silver. So assuming you could heal a discarded captured character (which I still think you can't) wouldn't it return to being a captured character after it's healed? In which case you effectively healed a captured character, which isn't what healing cards do.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Healed characters don't keep their gained abilities.
Instant Abilities > Restore Life, Heal, or Release > How to Use
Healing cards may be activated on any character in play (e.g., territory) of matching brigade color. They may target any card being discarded or subject to a poison or disease special ability, regardless of brigade color. The healing effect is instant, not delayed. You can play a healing enhancement at any time to restore a character sent to the discard pile at any previous time during the turn (e.g., Draw Phase or Preparation Phase). The discarded character may come from battle, a territory, a set-aside area, or from a draw pile (e.g., Confusion). Cards being discarded can be healed on the way to the discard pile. Cards being discarded from anywhere may be healed at any point during that turn. Characters discarded on a previous turn cannot be healed. A healed card is immediately placed in the owner’s territory; they retain all their abilities.
re⋅tain /rɪˈteɪn/ [ri-teyn]
–verb (used with object)
1. to keep possession of.
2. to continue to use, practice, etc.: to retain an old custom.
3. to continue to hold or have: to retain a prisoner in custody; a cloth that retains its color.
4. to keep in mind; remember.
5. to hold in place or position.
6. to engage, esp. by payment of a preliminary fee: to retain a lawyer.
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I only can rule based on the REG. The REG says retain. Nowhere in the definition of retain does it say to take back something that was taken away. Retain means that it was never taken away in the first place.
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Then you can never heal anything - because everything happens instantly ...
Instant Abilities > Discard or Remove > Clarifications
• There is no distinction between “instantly discarded”, “being discarded”, and “about to be discarded.”
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Right, I agree with you and your REG quote - I was refuting your point about the heroes 'About to be discarded'.
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Hey,
Instant Abilities > Restore Life, Heal, or Release > How to Use
You can play a healing enhancement at any time to restore a character sent to the discard pile at any previous time during the turn (e.g., Draw Phase or Preparation Phase).
I think that answers the question posed in this thread. A captured hero discarded by burial is not a "character sent to the discard pile" so it cannot be healed.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Right, I agree with you and your REG quote - I was refuting your point about the heroes 'About to be discarded'.
My point was to answer Master K's question about the captured hero being discarded earlier in the turn, but not really being in the discard pile. The rationale is that "instantly discarded" (which is what happened when Burial was played) and "about to be discarded" are the same thing (game-wise). So, when the healing card heals a character that was "instantly discarded," it is the same as that character being healed before it was discarded (i.e. on the way to the discard pile).
That is how the "Purgatory" makes sense to me: a healing enhancement has the effect of making the targeted card never have actually been to the discard pile. That is why they retain their abilities, rather than reset.
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Well, I think thats what the question has evolved to Tim - Does a card in the discard pile retain the identifiers of how it got there? - If it does then you can't heal it - If it resets - then the heal card simply sees a discarded character and heals it.
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just because heroes that are healed retain their abilities does not retroactively make it as if they never hit the discard pile; rather, its simply just that, healed heroes retain their abilities. 'purgatory' cannot be used as a logical solution to a problem, as there is no such thing.
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just because heroes that are healed retain their abilities does not retroactively make it as if they never hit the discard pile;
I would agrue that it does based on the quote just a few posts up that "instantly discarded" and "about to be discarded" are the same. That would not be logical, but it is nonetheless true.
For me, negating a "look at opponent's hand" ability is not logical, yet it still can happen (in the game).
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i dont understand what your quotes have to do with the fact of cards hitting the discard pile. it just explains the different terminology of the word 'discard'. nowhere does it say that a healing card retroactively makes it so a discard never occured in a previous phase. if i discard a hero in a previous phase and i heal it in a later phase, it obviously physically sat in the discard pile until it was healed.
i would also argue its possible to negate an opponents knowledge of your hand: just ask them to forget what they saw. :)
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Hey,
Instant Abilities > Restore Life, Heal, or Release > How to Use
You can play a healing enhancement at any time to restore a character sent to the discard pile at any previous time during the turn (e.g., Draw Phase or Preparation Phase).
I think that answers the question posed in this thread. A captured hero discarded by burial is not a "character sent to the discard pile" so it cannot be healed.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
Well, I think thats what the question has evolved to Tim - Does a card in the discard pile retain the identifiers of how it got there? - If it does then you can't heal it - If it resets - then the heal card simply sees a discarded character and heals it.
According to cards such as Goods Recovered they do.