Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: SomeKittens on February 21, 2011, 11:45:10 AM
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When the shuffler is rescued, do captured demons get shuffled?
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Why would they not? They are acting like a lost soul, yes?
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They aren't being redeemed, so they can.
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Why would they not? They are acting like a lost soul, yes?
That's just the thing, they're not.
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When the shuffler is rescued, do captured demons get shuffled?
They are not shuffled, as they are not lost souls.
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Well they are impersonating a lost soul correct?
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Wait a second. Is there actually a rule now that captured demons can't be redeemed?
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Yes. ;D
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[
Well they are impersonating a lost soul correct?
No. Captured demons are not lost souls. They are simply captured demons, however they are still cosidered evil.
Wait a second. Is there actually a rule now that captured demons can't be redeemed?
Yes. This rule has been around for awhile now.
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24490.0;msg=386405 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24490.0;msg=386405)
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[Well they are impersonating a lost soul correct?
No. Captured demons are not lost souls. They are simply captured demons, however they are still cosidered evil.
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24490.0;msg=386405 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24490.0;msg=386405)
So can you band to a captured demon? And if not, why not?
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I was not saying that captured demons are lost souls, just that they were like lost souls, therefore taking on similar characteristics.
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Yes. This rule has been around for awhile now.
I guess the reason I didn't know is because it was locked, and thus never appeared on my "unread posts since last visit" list.
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[Well they are impersonating a lost soul correct?
No. Captured demons are not lost souls. They are simply captured demons, however they are still cosidered evil.
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24490.0;msg=386405 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24490.0;msg=386405)
So can you band to a captured demon? And if not, why not?
No. They are not evil characters. They are simply captured demons. They would have to be reset somehow to once again become evil characters. They can still be targeted by abilities that effect evil cards.
I was not saying that captured demons are lost souls, just that they were like lost souls, therefore taking on similar characteristics.
They are not like lost souls. They are simply captured demons. I can see in your mind where you could draw similarites, but they are not similar. The only similarity is the capture.
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Adotson is correct.
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So they don't get shuffled.
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So they just sit in your LoB doing nothing?
Also, could you add a captured demon in your LoB to a site if you used guards?
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Worst ruling ever. Since when are rulings based on Theology?
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[Well they are impersonating a lost soul correct?
No. Captured demons are not lost souls. They are simply captured demons, however they are still cosidered evil.
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24490.0;msg=386405 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24490.0;msg=386405)
So can you band to a captured demon? And if not, why not?
No. They are not evil characters. They are simply captured demons. They would have to be reset somehow to once again become evil characters. They can still be targeted by abilities that effect evil cards.
I was not saying that captured demons are lost souls, just that they were like lost souls, therefore taking on similar characteristics.
They are not like lost souls. They are simply captured demons. I can see in your mind where you could draw similarites, but they are not similar. The only similarity is the capture.
So, according to the REG, what is this new state of existing? (Not LS, Not Character) Do we call it Minnesotian? ;)
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Sorry but I though I would just piggy back off the captured topic here what do captured characters retain exactly? Just their alignment and gender? or do they get to keep like brigades and cultures also?
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Worst ruling ever. Since when are rulings based on Theology?
Since this is a Christian card game? :scratch: Search me...
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Sorry but I though I would just piggy back off the captured topic here what do captured characters retain exactly? Just their alignment and gender? or do they get to keep like brigades and cultures also?
I'm not entirely sure, but I know they keep their identifiers as well.
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So, according to the REG, what is this new state of existing? (Not LS, Not Character) Do we call it Minnesotian? ;)
Is it possible to 1 up and 1 down something without it having to be zero?
:D >:( :( ::) :P :-*
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Worst ruling ever. Since when are rulings based on Theology?
Since this is a Christian card game? :scratch: Search me...
Since some body thought Theology was more important than how the game is played?
Hostly its a card game who cares if its theology correct?
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Given that Demons are not even "impersonating" a lost soul once they hit the LoB, can they even be targeted by cards such as Trapped in Cleverness?
Trapped in Cleverness SA: Take any Evil Character in play prisoner and place in your land of bondage. Treat as a Lost Soul.
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I think the "Treat as a Lost Soul" on TiC is clarifying text as "take prisoner" and "capture" already treat the character as such just with that terminology. As such, I'd venture to guess you could simply ignore that for demons.
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I like the fact that the argument is made to just ignore parts of the SA on certain cards. Let me clarify (heh) exactly what I am saying here. There is now a game rule that states demons cannot be treated as Lost Souls. That being the case "Treat as a lost soul"--when applied to demons--cannot merely be clarifying text. I can't clarify something by making a false claim.
Follow-up question...
Does this ruling apply to Que? After all in the Angel Wars videos, doesn't Que repent?
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I thought 'Q' was on Star Trek ???
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I like the fact that the argument is made to just ignore parts of the SA on certain cards. Let me clarify (heh) exactly what I am saying here. There is now a game rule that states demons cannot be treated as Lost Souls. That being the case "Treat as a lost soul"--when applied to demons--cannot merely be clarifying text. I can't clarify something by making a false claim.
Follow-up question...
Does this ruling apply to Que? After all in the Angel Wars videos, doesn't Que repent?
I think we need to start a "Save Que" petition. If Jesus can save you then he can save Que!
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Bible > Angel Wars. I managed to make it through the Bible, but never made it through Angel Wars.
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Bible > Angel Wars. I managed to make it through the Bible, but never made it through Angel Wars.
Hmmm.... then why did we base a set off of something that contradicts the Bible?
Bonus questions:
1. Show me where it says demons can not be redeemed (Biblically speaking of course)
2. Explain Angelic Rebellion
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Does this ruling apply to Que? After all in the Angel Wars videos, doesn't Que repent?
I think we need to start a "Save Que" petition. If Jesus can save you then he can save Que!
Of course Que is NT, and we already know that Son of God can't save the NT-only Lost Soul. Maybe that is it. ;)
Bible > Angel Wars.
No argument there. I am just pointing out this is a weird place to start making game rulings based on theology.
Even accepting that demons cannot be redeemed, I still don't understand this ruling. It seems to me that "Lost Soul" is not the logical equivalent to "Something that can be redeemed." Are we claiming that theologically demons are not in some sense "lost" or that they do not have "souls?"
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So they just sit in your LoB doing nothing?
Basically yes.
Also, could you add a captured demon in your LoB to a site if you used guards?
No. Guards adds an "evil character" they are no longer a "evil character", but a "captured evil character".
I think the "Treat as a Lost Soul" on TiC is clarifying text as "take prisoner" and "capture" already treat the character as such just with that terminology. As such, I'd venture to guess you could simply ignore that for demons.
+1
I thought 'Q' was on Star Trek ???
Nice transition. The "Q" episodes were some of my favorites :)
Are we claiming that theologically demons are not in some sense "lost" or that they do not have "souls?"
I would guess that we are saying that IF demons have souls, that they are not the same sort of souls that humans have, and that they cannot be saved by the same method that human souls are (which is the only method available in Redemption).
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I would guess that we are saying that IF demons have souls, that they are not the same sort of souls that humans have, and that they cannot be saved by the same method that human souls are (which is the only method available in Redemption).
Speaking strictly theologically, isn't the whole premise of Redemption's win strategy un-Biblical? I mean, God saves souls, not humans (or angels).
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Speaking strictly theologically, isn't the whole premise of Redemption's win strategy un-Biblical? I mean, God saves souls, not humans (or angels).
Again, I would guess that the idea is that God uses humans and angels as instruments of His grace in order to draw people to Himself. Or as the saying goes..."We are the hands and feet of Jesus" :)
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Are we claiming that theologically demons are not in some sense "lost" or that they do not have "souls?"
I would guess that we are saying that IF demons have souls, that they are not the same sort of souls that humans have, and that they cannot be saved by the same method that human souls are (which is the only method available in Redemption).
I think you miss my point. I am asking for the basis for your ruling about demons not being lost souls because it does not strictly follow from the ruling that demons cannot be redeemed.
Let's say we are in agreement that demons cannot be redeemed (which I posited at the start except for possibly Que) for theological reasons. What theological justification is there for your assertion (actually adotson's assertion that you have agreed with) that demons cannot be "lost souls?" IF demons have souls and IF demons are lost why can't they be "lost souls" even if they cannot be rescued?
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Actually, the burden of proof is really more on you. Satan and his followers were cast out of heaven, and there's nothing in the Bible to suggest they can be redeemed. The status quo is that they have been expelled from the presence of God, so it's not our job to prove that they can't be redeemed.
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No where in the bible is it shown that a demon is redeemed. That is why I was firmly against Redemption of Demons.
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So they don't get shuffled.
Can I get a definitive answer on this?
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Shuffler LS shuffles LS's, not captured Demons.
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No where in the bible is it shown that a demon is redeemed. That is why I was firmly against Redemption of Demons.
but we are not "Redeeming Demons" we are taking one card that represents a bad guy and turning it into a card that represents a point.
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...and the argument has come full circle.