Author Topic: UPDATE: Can You Play Dominants During the Draw Phase? -- Yes! (Read 5314 times)

Warrior_Monk · « **on:** June 12, 2014, 07:29:00 PM »

I've found threads that mention it, but they're old. I seem to remember this being a thing, but don't remember why. Is this a real rule, or am I making this up?

Redoubter · « **Reply #1 on:** June 12, 2014, 07:29:53 PM »

Real rule as far as I can remember. I think officially you can't play them in draw or upkeep? Couldn't tell you where to find it as a 'rule' though

whiteandgold7 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 12, 2014, 07:56:53 PM »

4th edition rulebook states:
Dominant: A lamb or grim reaper illustration located in the icon box identifies a dominant. A dominant can be played regardless of initiative or turn.

Not sure, I'll try the R.E.G. I have seen people get GoYS during the draw phase and play it right away, but technically I believe they were doing it during their preparation phase. Can you give me an example of why someone would use a Dominant During the Draw Phase?

The Draw Phase is defined as: You draw three (3) cards and add them to your hand. Lost Souls are placed in territory. For each Lost Soul you draw, draw another card.

Next is

The Preparation Phase - You may place any number of characters (cross or dragon icon) into your territory.

I cannot see a real reason to play dominants during the draw phase in the first place. Can you clarify?

Redoubter · « **Reply #3 on:** June 12, 2014, 08:02:07 PM »

Quote from: whiteandgold7 on June 12, 2014, 07:56:53 PM

I cannot see a real reason to play dominants during the draw phase in the first place. Can you clarify?

So you can Mayhem before they play anything down in Prep.

whiteandgold7 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 12, 2014, 08:16:27 PM »

From R.E.G. we have:
Dominant
A lamb or grim reaper illustration located in the icon box identifies a dominant. A dominant can be played at any time regardless of initiative or turn.
Draw Phase
The draw phase is the first phase of a player’s turn. A player must draw three cards from the top of his deck during his draw phase. Each Lost Soul drawn must be placed in that player’s Land of Bondage, and the Lost Soul’s special ability activates. Each time a player draws a Lost Soul, he must draw another card to replace it, until three cards except Lost Souls have been drawn. If no cards are left in a player’s deck, the game continues using the cards that player has.

I have read through the R.E.G. just now, and I do not see any other mention as to whether or not you can play Dominants During the Draw Phase.

whiteandgold7 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 12, 2014, 08:24:07 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on June 12, 2014, 08:02:07 PM

Quote from: whiteandgold7 on June 12, 2014, 07:56:53 PM
I cannot see a real reason to play dominants during the draw phase in the first place. Can you clarify?

So you can Mayhem before they play anything down in Prep.

Which would give each player six cards instead of eight? In my opinion that card would be a waste to be played during the draw phase, and I'm assuming that you mean during the initial draw phase as opposed to draw phase on turn 2 forward? Please clarify. I'm trying to understand the strategy. Other than drawing out additional lost souls (which if that's your strategy I understand that) during initial draw phase, I'm not sure I understand what would be the reason for playing this at that time. I think almost any other time could be a more opportune time to play this particular dominant.

Steven

Redoubter · « **Reply #6 on:** June 12, 2014, 08:30:27 PM »

Just to respond to your last post, Mayhem had to be errata'd because it was too strong on the first turn. Very powerful still, but even worse then.

If I have Mayhem and go first, I play down as much as I want. Then you go, draw your 3, now you are at 11. I Mayhem, you are -5 with fewer first turn options and I am + based on how many cards I laid down.

Even now, it is a very common play to throw it down after someone has made their start-turn draw to knock out their hand. It is a powerful play and is great for gaining card advantage. If you wait until they play cards, you get less of a card advantage.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #7 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:14:28 PM »

I mean, you can still Mayhem as soon as you hit Prep, I was just always told that Draw phase ends automatically as soon as you drew 3, and upkeep phase ended as soon as you resolved upkeep abilities, so there's no actual time to play cards because you don't control when the phase ends.

The issue is now there's a reason to play SoG in the draw phase, namely on the revealer or hopper to negate it.

Quote from: Redoubter on June 12, 2014, 08:30:27 PM

If I have Mayhem and go first, I play down as much as I want. Then you go, draw your 3, now you are at 11. I Mayhem, you are -5 with fewer first turn options and I am + based on how many cards I laid down.

Yeah, people could easily get a 9 card advantage (playing down 4 cards and taking away 5 of your opponent's). It was awful.

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #8 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:18:00 PM »

In regards to playing it in draw phase later, if somebody is about to play SoG and NJ for the win and you see it coming as they draw it, you can slam Mayhem and shuffle their deck (that is, if Mayhem hits the table before your opponents doms). I won a multiplayer tournament this way.

Redoubter · « **Reply #9 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:25:31 PM »

Quote from: Westy on June 12, 2014, 09:14:28 PM

The issue is now there's a reason to play SoG in the draw phase, namely on the revealer or hopper to negate it.

This was specifically ruled against. You can do it to negate the soul if Hopper or Revealer is drawn in Prep, Battle, or Discard, but not during Draw or Upkeep. I can't find the thread right now, but there was an interesting discussion on that...anyone else know where it is?

Quote from: Minion of Jesus on June 12, 2014, 09:18:00 PM

In regards to playing it in draw phase later, if somebody is about to play SoG and NJ for the win and you see it coming as they draw it, you can slam Mayhem and shuffle their deck (that is, if Mayhem hits the table before your opponents doms). I won a multiplayer tournament this way.

If they were playing it in response to their own drawing at the beginning of the turn, it takes precedence over Mayhem. Just saying.

whiteandgold7 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:28:34 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on June 12, 2014, 08:30:27 PM

Just to respond to your last post, Mayhem had to be errata'd because it was too strong on the first turn. Very powerful still, but even worse then.

If I have Mayhem and go first, I play down as much as I want. Then you go, draw your 3, now you are at 11. I Mayhem, you are -5 with fewer first turn options and I am + based on how many cards I laid down.

Even now, it is a very common play to throw it down after someone has made their start-turn draw to knock out their hand. It is a powerful play and is great for gaining card advantage. If you wait until they play cards, you get less of a card advantage.

Sometimes, but their are strategies that still exist where that is not the case, where you can get a more cards in your hand advantage by playing it later

Redoubter · « **Reply #11 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:30:37 PM »

Quote from: whiteandgold7 on June 12, 2014, 09:28:34 PM

Sometimes, but their are strategies that still exist where that is not the case, where you can get a more cards in your hand advantage by playing it later

While this is true on rarer occasions, they actually made a errata to a dominant to defuse that particularly OP strategy, and it is still the best time to play Mayhem, that's pretty much established.

If you never dealt with it pre-errata at tournaments, consider yourself lucky. The chances of overcoming FTM (first turn Mayhem) were very low when playing competitive opponents.

Chris · « **Reply #12 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:33:12 PM »

Here's a better example then: My opponent has Covenant with Death up, which cannot be negated. I draw Destruction of Nehushtan, and I want to play it immediately so I can play TC enhancements during my Prep phase. It's important to know whether this is legal or not. Assuming there isn't any specific rule on it already, I want to argue that dominants should be playable regardless of phase. It's cleaner to just say it that way.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #13 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:36:05 PM »

Quote from: Chris on June 12, 2014, 09:33:12 PM

Here's a better example then: My opponent has Covenant with Death up, which cannot be negated. I draw Destruction of Nehushtan, and I want to play it immediately so I can play TC enhancements during my Prep phase. It's important to know whether this is legal or not. Assuming there isn't any specific rule on it already, I want to argue that dominants should be playable regardless of phase. It's cleaner to just say it that way.

While it's not currently illegal, I 100% agree.

Redoubter · « **Reply #14 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:39:54 PM »

Currently, you could not do as described, Chris. I really need to find that thread though, I can't think clearly about where it ended up or what it was called

Master KChief · « **Reply #15 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:43:17 PM »

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/new-son-of-god-and-the-hopper/msg509583/#msg509583

Quote from: SirNobody on June 08, 2013, 04:55:10 PM

Hey,

Quote from: Westy on June 07, 2013, 10:01:11 PM
I don't see why dominants shouldn't be able to be played in the draw phase if it's in response to an opponent's action. It does say the upkeep phase follows immediately after, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't play cards during the draw phase.

It's the same reason you can't play Harvest Time in response to your opponent's only remaining lost soul being underdecked with Hormah durring battle resolution. Like battle resolution, the draw phase (and upkeep phase) are "instant" phases, you do what must be done and move on.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #16 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:49:17 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on June 12, 2014, 09:43:17 PM

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/new-son-of-god-and-the-hopper/msg509583/#msg509583

Quote from: SirNobody on June 08, 2013, 04:55:10 PM
Hey,

Quote from: Westy on June 07, 2013, 10:01:11 PM
I don't see why dominants shouldn't be able to be played in the draw phase if it's in response to an opponent's action. It does say the upkeep phase follows immediately after, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't play cards during the draw phase.

It's the same reason you can't play Harvest Time in response to your opponent's only remaining lost soul being underdecked with Hormah durring battle resolution. Like battle resolution, the draw phase (and upkeep phase) are "instant" phases, you do what must be done and move on.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

I had almost forgotten about that thread. Gabe disagreed though and the REG was never fixed to say that dominants can't actually be played at any time.

Chris · « **Reply #17 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:58:45 PM »

That thread was extremely inconclusive. Maly states that the Draw and Upkeep phases are "Instant Phases" as though it's a fact, even though Gabe later in the thread asserts that the status quo is that Dominants can be played in any phase. Gabe also appears to draw a clear line where at least three Elders believe it should work the way Maly describes (Maly, Jordan, and Bryon, all of whom post in that thread), while at least one other Elder (Gabe himself) believes it should work the way Gabe describes. I'm honestly inclined to side with Gabe there. Not being able to play dominants in the draw or upkeep phases has felt like an unwritten rule for a while, but it's not in the rulebook or the REG, and the Elders themselves don't seem to have a consensus one way or the other. Given that that is the case, the fact that it is not an official, written rule anywhere leads me to believe that under the current rules, you can play dominants during the draw and upkeep phases. More importantly however, this is something the Elders and Rob should figure out before Nats this year.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #18 on:** June 12, 2014, 10:01:04 PM »

Question: is Dominant slapjack a thing then? While "Responding to your own action" isn't really a thing, that's the argument always used, but you can't really respond to an action from another phase. That's just silly.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #19 on:** June 12, 2014, 10:21:07 PM »

Quote from: Chris on June 12, 2014, 09:58:45 PM

Gabe also appears to draw a clear line where at least three Elders believe it should work the way Maly describes (Maly, Jordan, and Bryon, all of whom post in that thread), ... and the Elders themselves don't seem to have a consensus one way or the other. Given that that is the case, the fact that it is not an official, written rule anywhere leads me to believe that under the current rules, you can play dominants during the draw and upkeep phases. More importantly however, this is something the Elders and Rob should figure out before Nats this year.

The purpose of the Elder system is to make official rulings. If three Elders agree, then that is the official ruling.

Chris · « **Reply #20 on:** June 12, 2014, 10:28:58 PM »

Only if there's no dissent from any other Elders, which there was/is. I'm also fairly certain that three Elders agreeing without dissent is a made up rule as well.

Redoubter · « **Reply #21 on:** June 12, 2014, 11:02:12 PM »

Quote from: Chris on June 12, 2014, 10:28:58 PM

Only if there's no dissent from any other Elders, which there was/is. I'm also fairly certain that three Elders agreeing without dissent is a made up rule as well.

That would never work, because there will almost always be a dissenting opinion among any group of people, and the Elders are no exception (this has been shown many times in the past).

Gabe seemed to acknowledge that he was disagreeing with what was the consensus of the rest of the Elders who had given their opinion. He has said in the past he has not agreed with decisions that he still had to enforce (just like any judge in this game).

So him disagreeing does not necessarily throw this into limbo. Based on the way the other threads have gone, and the precedents set, I would say it is safe to assume that the ruling is as described earlier in this thread, unless we hear otherwise from the Elders. There is enough support for it at this point and not enough to indicate there is anything in flux.

We do need an official rule somewhere in the rules materials at some point, but that's another story.

Chris · « **Reply #22 on:** June 12, 2014, 11:08:30 PM »

The idea that three Elders agreeing on a rule change makes it official (which again, I'm fairly certain was just a suggestion made off-hand by Mark) was only if there was no dissent by any other Elders in that thread. Otherwise, rule changes had to be taken to the other side of the boards. That is my understanding of that system, as the original post where Mark suggested it (which I can't find) described. Furthermore, Gabe, in this post, said that he believes the status quo is that dominants can be played in the draw and upkeep phases, and that he's willing to fold on a rule change, but that it is not in any way official.

Edit: Further searching leads me to believe that the "three Elders" guideline is official, but that I'm correct in that there can be no dissent.

Master KChief · « **Reply #23 on:** June 12, 2014, 11:36:19 PM »

Do you have a source for the dissent clause. I do not recall that having an Elder disagree was part of the requirement, only that 3 elders must agree.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #24 on:** June 13, 2014, 12:07:29 AM »

Here is the official notice from Rob,

Quote

To help resolve ruling issues, the following people have authority to making rulings in the game. If at least two people on the list rule on an issue it can be read with a higher degree of confidence. Also, if one of these Elders post a ruling and states that the ruling was reached by consensus it can be understood to settle an issue.

My recollection is that both the "three elders in agreement" and "no dissent" were put forward as simple rule of thumb. If I recall correctly it was something like "if three elders are in agreement and none disagree then you can consider the ruling official." This was not put forward by Rob, and I do not believe two other elders signed on to it, so it is not an official ruling.

In any event having a disagreement between elders would strike me as being something less than the consensus Rob wanted to settle an issue.

Praeceps · « **Reply #25 on:** June 13, 2014, 12:12:54 AM »

Consensus doesn't mean unanimous...

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #26 on:** June 13, 2014, 12:31:42 AM »

It also doesn't mean someone actively disagreeing...

Chris · « **Reply #27 on:** June 13, 2014, 12:53:23 AM »

It's true that there is rarely going to be a true consensus, but if there's an active disagreement on this side of the boards, I think the issue can be understood to not be definitively ruled.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #28 on:** June 13, 2014, 06:28:16 AM »

There was a consensus. Gabe doesn't count.... unless he posts here within the next 24 hours to refute me.

* I've always wanted to try the new Taunt ability.

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #29 on:** June 13, 2014, 09:05:13 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on June 12, 2014, 09:25:31 PM

Quote from: Westy on June 12, 2014, 09:14:28 PM
The issue is now there's a reason to play SoG in the draw phase, namely on the revealer or hopper to negate it.

This was specifically ruled against. You can do it to negate the soul if Hopper or Revealer is drawn in Prep, Battle, or Discard, but not during Draw or Upkeep. I can't find the thread right now, but there was an interesting discussion on that...anyone else know where it is?

Quote from: Minion of Jesus on June 12, 2014, 09:18:00 PM
In regards to playing it in draw phase later, if somebody is about to play SoG and NJ for the win and you see it coming as they draw it, you can slam Mayhem and shuffle their deck (that is, if Mayhem hits the table before your opponents doms). I won a multiplayer tournament this way.

If they were playing it in response to their own drawing at the beginning of the turn, it takes precedence over Mayhem. Just saying.

Ridiculous. Well, I will remember that for the future.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #30 on:** June 13, 2014, 09:07:27 AM »

My understanding of the system is that when 2 or more of the Elders agree in a thread about a ruling, then it can be considered official unless another elder posts in that thread that they disagree. In cases where there is disagreement, then the elders take the issue to the other side of the board to discuss it together. When they come to a conclusion, then they return to the original thread to post the consensus view, and all the Elders then support that ruling regardless of their personal opinions on the matter.

As for this particular thread, I agree with Redoubter that dominants would NOT be played during "Draw" phase of the turn. The "Draw" phase is indeed simply drawing the 3 (or 4 with Seven Years of Plenty) cards. When that has been done, the "Draw" phase is immediately over, and the "Upkeep" phase has begun.

The "Upkeep" phase is a bit more complex though. There are automatic parts like adding counters to anything requiring them (ie. set asides). But there are also optional parts (ie. underdecking a disciple in Fishing Boat to draw cards) that players choose whether to do or not. Considering that players can make these choices during "Upkeep" phase, it makes sense to me that they could also choose whether to play dominants during this phase.

Therefore, it appears that the elders as a whole have several different positions on this issue, and we should discuss this on the other side. Hopefully we'll resolve it quickly and return with a consensus soon

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #31 on:** June 13, 2014, 09:54:28 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 13, 2014, 09:07:27 AM

My understanding of the system is that when 2 or more of the Elders agree in a thread about a ruling, then it can be considered official unless another elder posts in that thread that they disagree. In cases where there is disagreement, then the elders take the issue to the other side of the board to discuss it together. When they come to a conclusion, then they return to the original thread to post the consensus view, and all the Elders then support that ruling regardless of their personal opinions on the matter.

As for this particular thread, I agree with Redoubter that dominants would NOT be played during "Draw" phase of the turn. The "Draw" phase is indeed simply drawing the 3 (or 4 with Seven Years of Plenty) cards. When that has been done, the "Draw" phase is immediately over, and the "Upkeep" phase has begun.

If you go to the original thread where this was discussed, this was (at least in part) precisely the ruling that Gabe was disagreeing with. Gabe also claimed that his interpretation was equivalent to "Dominants can be played at any time" and is, thus, the status quo. Given this background and what you wrote in the first paragraph are we safe to interpret your agreement with Redoubter as advisory and *not* an official ruling?

As this whole discussion is about the "officialness" of this ruling in particular (and what we mean by "officialness" in general), I feel it would be best of we can clarify this point.

Master KChief · « **Reply #32 on:** June 13, 2014, 10:17:43 AM »

Redemption: the only CCG where 'how people have always played it' is the official ruling.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #33 on:** June 13, 2014, 10:57:28 AM »

Quote from: Master KChief on June 13, 2014, 10:17:43 AM

Redemption: the only CCG where 'how people have always played it' is the official ruling.

To be more precise: How people in [insert your state here] have always played it.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #34 on:** June 13, 2014, 11:10:34 AM »

Quote from: Master KChief on June 13, 2014, 10:17:43 AM

Redemption: the only CCG where 'how people have always played it' is the official ruling.

To be fair that's only because no one wants to do the paperwork.

Quote from: Gabe on June 09, 2013, 07:45:07 PM

I was just summarizing what I know. Presently it is not being discussed so that is not official. If those guys would like to make their interpretation official they are welcome to write up a change for the definition of a Dominant as well as the official rule book. Then we can make the change official. Until then, as far as I'm concerned, we stay with the status quo. That is, a Dominant can be played at any time.

Quote from: whiteandgold7 on June 12, 2014, 08:16:27 PM

I have read through the R.E.G. just now, and I do not see any other mention as to whether or not you can play Dominants During the Draw Phase.

It is awesome that these two are separated by almost exactly one year.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #35 on:** June 13, 2014, 01:07:16 PM »

Quote from: Westy on June 12, 2014, 10:01:04 PM

Question: is Dominant slapjack a thing then? While "Responding to your own action" isn't really a thing, that's the argument always used, but you can't really respond to an action from another phase. That's just silly.

Chris · « **Reply #36 on:** June 13, 2014, 01:11:44 PM »

Quote from: Westy on June 13, 2014, 01:07:16 PM

Quote from: Westy on June 12, 2014, 10:01:04 PM
Question: is Dominant slapjack a thing then? While "Responding to your own action" isn't really a thing, that's the argument always used, but you can't really respond to an action from another phase. That's just silly.

It seems people are divided on what the current status quo is. That would only be an issue if you can't play dominants during the draw or upkeep phases.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #37 on:** June 15, 2014, 08:10:02 PM »

I'm with Chris and Gabe.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #38 on:** June 15, 2014, 09:07:36 PM »

dominants are silly card types, lets just rule against them

DDiceRC · « **Reply #39 on:** June 15, 2014, 09:26:10 PM »

After reading this thread, I'm convinced that, Elders or no Elders, Redemption has no system to resolve disputes among players if an Elder is on opposite sides except waiting for Rob to say something official.

(My system is wait for a tournament, poll the Redemption veterans I trust there, and follow whatever their consensus is. Or, if it's a Regional, go with Dayne.)

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #40 on:** June 16, 2014, 01:50:16 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on June 13, 2014, 11:10:34 AM

Quote from: Master KChief on June 13, 2014, 10:17:43 AM
Redemption: the only CCG where 'how people have always played it' is the official ruling.

To be fair that's only because no one wants to do the paperwork.

I would do it if Rob would ask me to. I'd love to clean up the rules for this game. I'm sure some people would get annoyed at some of the choices I would make, but I've noticed that people will get annoyed no matter what happens.

The Guardian · « **Reply #41 on:** August 06, 2014, 01:34:37 PM »

The ruling for Nationals will be that you cannot play dominants during draw or upkeep phases.

However, Rob is open to continuing a discussion for a potential change that would take effect for next season.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #42 on:** August 06, 2014, 05:06:01 PM »

Quote from: Westy on June 12, 2014, 10:01:04 PM

Question: is Dominant slapjack a thing then? While "Responding to your own action" isn't really a thing, that's the argument always used, but you can't really respond to an action from another phase. That's just silly.

Gabe · « **Reply #43 on:** March 02, 2015, 07:35:40 PM »

Going forward we have decided to allow Dominants to be played during the draw phase and the upkeep phase. Here's an example of how this plays out.

Begin draw phase. Draw 3. Any player may play a Dominant.

Begin upkeep phase. Active player may resolve any number of "during upkeep" abilities in the order of their choosing. Any player may play a Dominant.

Begin preparation phase.

Praeceps · « **Reply #44 on:** March 02, 2015, 10:53:47 PM »

Thanks for getting back to us on this.

News:

Author Topic: UPDATE: Can You Play Dominants During the Draw Phase? -- Yes! (Read 5314 times)

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Chris

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Chris

Warrior_Monk

Chris

Chris

Chris

Warrior_Monk

Chris

Warrior_Monk