Author Topic: Can You Ignore/Be Immune to Gideon after Angel Under the Oak? (Read 6236 times)

SignoftheStar · « **on:** May 15, 2012, 06:15:24 PM »

Well, can you?

megamanlan · « **Reply #1 on:** May 15, 2012, 07:29:59 PM »

Yep, because those card affect u, not him so the Protect doesn't stop that, the battle just ends in a stalemate.

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #2 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:21:51 PM »

Well, it's something.

I still say it's broken.

megamanlan · « **Reply #3 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:34:48 PM »

Not really, because they still have to push their numbers over your's to win regardless.

Redoubter · « **Reply #4 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:36:24 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on May 15, 2012, 07:29:59 PM

Yep, because those card affect u, not him so the Protect doesn't stop that, the battle just ends in a stalemate.

Well, it doesn't "end", it is a stalemate and initiative passes as normal until everyone is done playing enhancements. But Gideon doesn't stop you from gaining immunity, agreed.

Quote from: megamanlan on May 15, 2012, 08:34:48 PM

Not really, because they still have to push their numbers over your's to win regardless.

Well, except in this sort of case, when they're immune (or otherwise not being defeated).

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #5 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:40:39 PM »

If you get Iron Pan up, though...

megamanlan · « **Reply #6 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:43:30 PM »

Pan won't work against AuTO/Gideon. But according to the rules of Protect, their STR must win or else it's still stalemate.

Korunks · « **Reply #7 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:46:07 PM »

Pretty sure you can't ignore Gideon because you cannot target him. Just gotta find the ignore ruling somewhere around here.

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #8 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:48:58 PM »

No, that's just it.
You don't target AUTO/Gideon. You can't; it can't be negated. But with that up, your opponent can't ignore/be immune to him.

Redoubter · « **Reply #9 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:50:48 PM »

Quote from: Korunks on May 15, 2012, 08:46:07 PM

Pretty sure you can't ignore Gideon because you cannot target him. Just gotta find the ignore ruling somewhere around here.

That's correct, but can still gain the immunity. The battle-winning part of Ignore doesn't have the same effect on defense, so I don't believe that matters. If the roles were reversed (Good vs Evil), then yes you are right and it does make a difference.

Quote from: Luxumbra on May 15, 2012, 08:48:58 PM

No, that's just it.
You don't target AUTO/Gideon. You can't; it can't be negated. But with that up, your opponent can't ignore/be immune to him.

Sure they can, if the ability is CBN as well.

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #10 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:56:39 PM »

Admittedly, but what the heck has ignore or immunity that's CBN?

Korunks · « **Reply #11 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:59:36 PM »

Ok I have been gone for a while but when did the search function die?

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #12 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:02:50 PM »

It's been down for a while.

Obnoxious, right? Down on the REG, too.

Korunks · « **Reply #13 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:05:05 PM »

Well doesn't that just make being a host more "fun". Now we get to fly mostly blind. Yay!

Redoubter · « **Reply #14 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:06:13 PM »

Quote from: Korunks on May 15, 2012, 08:59:36 PM

Ok I have been gone for a while but when did the search function die?

In the REG? When they moved it. NEVER MOVE A PATIENT IF YOU DON'T KNOW THEIR CONDITION! THEY COULD BECOME PARALYZED!

Quote from: Luxumbra on May 15, 2012, 08:56:39 PM

Admittedly, but what the heck has ignore or immunity that's CBN?

CBN or CBP, because it would be a prevent.

How about (just for evil, since that's our discussion): Amaziah's Order, Balaam's Disobedience, Goliath's Armor, Magicians' Snakes, and Prince of Persia.

That's not counting cards that can make their enhancements CBN or CBP, or set-asides that grant immunity.

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #15 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:15:46 PM »

No, the ignore/immunity DOES have to be CBN to get past Iron Pan... right?

Redoubter · « **Reply #16 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:20:03 PM »

Quote from: Luxumbra on May 15, 2012, 09:15:46 PM

No, the ignore/immunity DOES have to be CBN to get past Iron Pan... right?

It's an ongoing negate, and it was on the table and in effect prior to the card being played, and therefore it is "preventing". CBP cards work (unless it activates mid-battle, in which case it becomes a negate after the fact, and CBP cards are hit).

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #17 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:21:55 PM »

Why is it that you do not interrupt the CBP abilities and then prevent it when you negate? Isn't it an interrupt first and a prevent second?

Redoubter · « **Reply #18 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:27:44 PM »

Quote from: Luxumbra on May 15, 2012, 09:21:55 PM

Why is it that you do not interrupt the CBP abilities and then prevent it when you negate? Isn't it an interrupt first and a prevent second?

If you see "interrupt and prevent" on a card, it means "negate", but that is not what negate means. Negate means "undo this effect". If it is worded in a continuous way (like a FBTN card), then its effect goes forward to all cards played after, and becomes a prevent.

Don't get hung up on the actual words. Prevent undoes things going forward, Interrupt temporarily undoes things that happened, and Negate can do both depending on its wording (although it is permanent, which Interrupt is not always).

The CB- is as I described above. It does not stop those specific abilities. It stops things that happen before, after, or always (P, I, N).

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #19 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:38:19 PM »

From the 10th Anniversary Rulebook:

In the definition of Negate:
"Negate is the same as 'interrupt and prevent' combined. A negate ability interrupts a special ability, and then prevents that special ability for the rest of the battle."

However, while we are here:

Also from the 10th Anniversary Rulebook:

"Cannot be prevented: means that the special ability activates when the card is played, REGARDLESS OF ANY NEGATE OR PREVENT ABILITY THAT IS ALREADY AFFECTING BATTLE. However, a cannot be prevented ability can be interrupted or negated after it is played."
Cannot be interrupted: is the opposite. These special abilities can be prevented before they are played. But if they are not prevented before they are played, nothing can interrupt OR NEGATE THEM after they are played."

and

"If a card states that it cannot be negated, then it cannot be interrupted, prevented, redirected, or negated."

So in conclusion:
CBI: can be prevented/negated before being played, cannot be interrupted/negated after being played
CBP: can be interrupted/negated after being played, cannot be prevented/negated before being played
CBN: cannot be interrupted/prevented/negate before/after being played

Sorry everyone. I needed that.

Redoubter · « **Reply #20 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:44:14 PM »

Quote from: Luxumbra on May 15, 2012, 09:38:19 PM

From the 10th Anniversary Rulebook:

In the definition of Negate:
"Negate is the same as 'interrupt and prevent' combined. A negate ability interrupts a special ability, and then prevents that special ability for the rest of the battle."

This is no longer true. Interrupt and Prevent = Negate, BUT Negate =/= Interrupt and Prevent.

It is its own ability currently, just think of it as an undoer

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #21 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:46:08 PM »

And when did this happen? Because doing that just makes everything that much more complicated.

Redoubter · « **Reply #22 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:47:08 PM »

Quote from: Luxumbra on May 15, 2012, 09:46:08 PM

And when did this happen? Because doing that just makes everything that much more complicated.

It doesn't actually, when you get right down to it. Interrupt temporarily undoes, while Negate just undoes. There is no temporary. They are different abilities and are defined differently because of it

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #23 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:59:04 PM »

...I suppose I get it.

Interrupt for a moment undoes what is done, prevent undoes what is not yet done, and negate permanently undoes what is done.

And, regardless of what it is doing the undoing, CBI cannot be undone once it is done, CBP cannot be undone before it is done, and CBN cannot be undone.

To which I must say:
"But the power of the Ring could not be undone."
Which is to say, The Ring cannot be negated.

Redoubter · « **Reply #24 on:** May 15, 2012, 10:02:54 PM »

Quote from: Luxumbra on May 15, 2012, 09:59:04 PM

Interrupt for a moment undoes what is done, prevent undoes what is not yet done, and negate permanently undoes what is done or yet to be done (depending on the card).

FTFY

But you put it very well

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #25 on:** May 15, 2012, 10:21:55 PM »

Thank you, Redoubter. I thought I got rid of that last part.

But again, thank you. It's pretty tricky, but now I get it perfectly. You've been very patient, and I appreciate the help.

megamanlan · « **Reply #26 on:** May 15, 2012, 10:26:03 PM »

Redoubter is correct, for example, if I play Egyptian Snakes while Iron Pan is up, Snakes still works because it cannot be stopped before it was played, vs. if I'd play The First Seal ( which if they would reprint it w/ the same effect it would be Cannot be interrupted) would be negated by Iron Pan but can't be stopped once it hits play. But Balaam's Disobedience can't be negated at any time by Iron Pan, no matter when it was played.

I hope this helps. =)

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #27 on:** May 16, 2012, 03:36:32 PM »

Negate functions exactly like interrupt+prevent, but it is not defined that way so there's no mess with abilities that prevent or negate only interrupt or prevent abilities. The reason you can negate a CBP is because CBP is not inherently CBN, so you interrupt the inability to be prevented, prevent it, and then if/when it reactivates the negate happened prior to the CBP effect.

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #28 on:** May 16, 2012, 05:45:21 PM »

Wait a minute.

Minister Polarius, are you saying that you CAN negate CBP before it is played?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #29 on:** May 16, 2012, 05:55:10 PM »

Quote from: Luxumbra on May 16, 2012, 05:45:21 PM

Wait a minute.

Minister Polarius, are you saying that you CAN negate CBP before it is played?

Not quite.

Quote from: Minister Polarius on May 16, 2012, 03:36:32 PM

so you interrupt the inability to be prevented, prevent it, and then if/when it reactivates the negate happened prior to the CBP effect.

Redoubter · « **Reply #30 on:** May 16, 2012, 05:56:51 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on May 16, 2012, 03:36:32 PM

Negate functions exactly like interrupt+prevent

It just undoes. It does not mean "interrupt and prevent", and when you try to say negate = interrupt and prevent, we get:

Quote from: Luxumbra on May 16, 2012, 05:45:21 PM

Wait a minute.

Minister Polarius, are you saying that you CAN negate CBP before it is played?

The definition now is that Negate undoes. And if it is continuous, it becomes a prevent going forward, but it does not prevent going back. It just undoes.

Remember, CBP isn't affected by cards played BEFORE it. A negate after the fact can stop it.

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #31 on:** May 16, 2012, 05:59:46 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on May 16, 2012, 05:56:51 PM

Remember, CBP isn't affected by cards played BEFORE it. A negate after the fact can stop it.

Which includes a continues negate, like Iron Pan, correct?

browarod · « **Reply #32 on:** May 16, 2012, 06:21:44 PM »

Quote from: Luxumbra on May 16, 2012, 05:59:46 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on May 16, 2012, 05:56:51 PM

Remember, CBP isn't affected by cards played BEFORE it. A negate after the fact can stop it.

Which includes a continues negate, like Iron Pan, correct?

If Iron Pan was active prior to a CBP being played then it cannot stop the CBP due to CBP being unaffected by cards played before it. If Iron Pan comes to be active after a CBP is played then it would indeed be able to negate the CBP.

christiangamer25 · « **Reply #33 on:** May 16, 2012, 06:25:17 PM »

too bad oak is cbn not cbp so mute point

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #34 on:** May 16, 2012, 06:31:04 PM »

Right, that's what I thought. It's just the way that Minister Polarius put it...

Quote from: Minister Polarius on May 16, 2012, 03:36:32 PM

The reason you can negate a CBP is because CBP is not inherently CBN, so you interrupt the inability to be prevented, prevent it, and then if/when it reactivates the negate happened prior to the CBP effect.

...sounds like you CAN interrupt the CBP, then prevent it.
Which is what I thought we determined to NOT be the case.

christiangamer25 · « **Reply #35 on:** May 16, 2012, 06:33:16 PM »

all pol is doing is decribing how negates work

cbp nothing before it can stop it
cbi nothing after it can stop it
cbn nothing can stop it

PERIOD END OF DISCUSSION

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #36 on:** May 16, 2012, 06:48:30 PM »

Quote from: Luxumbra on May 16, 2012, 06:31:04 PM

Right, that's what I thought. It's just the way that Minister Polarius put it...
Quote from: Minister Polarius on May 16, 2012, 03:36:32 PM
The reason you can negate a CBP is because CBP is not inherently CBN, so you interrupt the inability to be prevented, prevent it, and then if/when it reactivates the negate happened prior to the CBP effect.
...sounds like you CAN interrupt the CBP, then prevent it.
Which is what I thought we determined to NOT be the case.

Which is why Pol says that Negate is actually different than Interrupt and Prevent, though it functions that way. Pol is correct in saying a Negate will stop a CBP if played after the fact.

Ongoing negates do not have an ongoing interrupt though, which is probably where you're getting mixed up.

STAMP · « **Reply #37 on:** May 16, 2012, 07:11:15 PM »

Quote

...sounds like you CAN interrupt the CBP, then prevent it.

megamanlan · « **Reply #38 on:** May 16, 2012, 07:57:32 PM »

Pol just accidentally undid what we just got finished explaining... *facepalm*
Pol was trying to explain CBP, but didn't do the best job of it... Sorry Pol...

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #39 on:** May 18, 2012, 01:47:14 PM »

Actually, I am exactly correct. Negate functions exactly like interrupt+prevent, but is not defined that way.

megamanlan · « **Reply #40 on:** May 18, 2012, 04:02:46 PM »

That's what I said, interrupt/prevent are the same as Negate, but for CBP, it doesn't mean that.

I was just saying that unfortunately, u helped w/ the confusion not explaining it.

Redoubter · « **Reply #41 on:** May 18, 2012, 06:38:58 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on May 18, 2012, 01:47:14 PM

Actually, I am exactly correct. Negate functions exactly like interrupt+prevent, but is not defined that way.

If it's not defined that way, then don't say that it is that. This leads to the type of confusion we get in this thread.

Negate is defined all by its lonesome as a completely different ability, and that makes it simpler to explain as well. If you try to mix them together, you get two pages of confusion.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #42 on:** May 19, 2012, 01:50:07 PM »

It functions exactly the same as interrupt+prevent. It is defined differently. That is all.

Praeceps · « **Reply #43 on:** May 19, 2012, 07:04:04 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on May 18, 2012, 06:38:58 PM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on May 18, 2012, 01:47:14 PM
Actually, I am exactly correct. Negate functions exactly like interrupt+prevent, but is not defined that way.

If it's not defined that way, then don't say that it is that. This leads to the type of confusion we get in this thread.

Negate is defined all by its lonesome as a completely different ability, and that makes it simpler to explain as well. If you try to mix them together, you get two pages of confusion.

Actually it was a lot simpler until we were told that they were defined differently. Having something work as a combination of two predefined abilities is simpler than creating a third definition who's difference is arguable, negligible, and confusing.

megamanlan · « **Reply #44 on:** May 20, 2012, 10:05:52 AM »

Not really, it's really confusing when you say Interrupt and Prevent is negate, so then the new players can quickly get confused if a card cannot be prevented but your Negating it and Negate is really interrupt and prevent, then we need to explain to a new player who's totally confused now then before.

In short it's easier to give Negate a different definition, at least for the new players.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #45 on:** May 21, 2012, 01:55:51 PM »

The biggest problem with saying "negate" is "undo" is that it leaves out the prevent aspect.

Redoubter · « **Reply #46 on:** May 21, 2012, 06:33:57 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on May 21, 2012, 01:55:51 PM

The biggest problem with saying "negate" is "undo" is that it leaves out the prevent aspect.

No, it undoes what is out and (depending on the wording) becomes a prevent. That also resolves the "Well, if it's CBP, does that mean it can be stopped by an ongoing Negate?"

Prevent stops abilities from activating. Interrupt temporarily undoes and suspends abilities. Negate undoes abilities. Ongoing negates are prevents.

That's the current definition. And it is the current definition that negate =/= interrupt and prevent.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #47 on:** May 22, 2012, 06:16:25 PM »

Sure, if you say "negate means undo and prevent." But I mostly see people saying "negate means undo" and leaving it at that.

megamanlan · « **Reply #48 on:** May 22, 2012, 09:06:46 PM »

If the Negate is ongoing, it's a Prevent for any cards played after it. I've always mentioned that to new players who I am teaching to play the game that too.

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Author Topic: Can You Ignore/Be Immune to Gideon after Angel Under the Oak? (Read 6236 times)

Warrior_Monk

browarod

Warrior_Monk