Author Topic: Can I get a final ruling on triggered enhancements? Playtesters? (Read 6343 times)

lightningninja · « **on:** December 09, 2009, 08:27:02 PM »

I just want one other play tester to confirm that placed enhancements activate AFTER all other abilities... can anyone else give me confirmation? I so far just have Tim Maly saying this.

Isildur · « **Reply #1 on:** December 09, 2009, 08:29:51 PM »

Wait What???

lightningninja · « **Reply #2 on:** December 09, 2009, 08:32:13 PM »

Basically when a hero enters battle, everything else happens before placed enhancements.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #3 on:** December 09, 2009, 08:44:16 PM »

Could you rename this thread "Need a final ruling on placed enhancements" or something to grab the officials attention even more? I really want a conclusion to this mess as well, though I still think they work when WC enhs do.

Isildur · « **Reply #4 on:** December 09, 2009, 08:47:24 PM »

Quote from: lightningninja on December 09, 2009, 08:32:13 PM

Basically when a hero enters battle, everything else happens before placed enhancements.

So your saying if a hero has Palsy on it. It can enter battle the sa on the hero does its stuff before Palsy kicks in and sends the hero back?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #5 on:** December 09, 2009, 08:48:55 PM »

This argument is mostly about enhancements placed via Elishana and Co.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #6 on:** December 09, 2009, 08:50:53 PM »

Quote from: Isildur on December 09, 2009, 08:47:24 PM

Quote from: lightningninja on December 09, 2009, 08:32:13 PM
Basically when a hero enters battle, everything else happens before placed enhancements.
So your saying if a hero has Palsy on it. It can enter battle the sa on the hero does its stuff before Palsy kicks in and sends the hero back?

No. He means an enhancement that was placed on a Hero via Agur-like powers, and has not activated yet. Palsy is a placed enhancement in the sense that it says "place" in the SA. Those are always active while they remain.

Isildur · « **Reply #7 on:** December 09, 2009, 08:51:35 PM »

OH ok thats cool then who cares about good placed stuff

Professoralstad · « **Reply #8 on:** December 09, 2009, 08:58:50 PM »

People who try to break the game...

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #9 on:** December 09, 2009, 09:04:26 PM »

*shifty eyes*

Who would try to do such a thing...?

STAMP · « **Reply #10 on:** December 10, 2009, 12:09:46 AM »

You breaka da game, I breaka you finga.

ANB = a one-a finga

anudda cod = a two-a finga

Capisce?

Ryupeco11 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 11, 2009, 09:24:03 PM »

Quote

No. He means an enhancement that was placed on a Hero via Agur-like powers, and has not activated yet. Palsy is a placed enhancement in the sense that it says "place" in the SA. Those are always active while they remain.

Doesn't Agur say that the enhancement activates immediately and then is discarded? if so wouldn't the enh. activate before the hero's ability?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #12 on:** December 11, 2009, 09:29:40 PM »

Quote from: Ryupeco11 on December 11, 2009, 09:24:03 PM

Doesn't Agur say that the enhancement activates immediately and then is discarded? if so wouldn't the enh. activate before the hero's ability?

Redemption uses a more loose translation of "immediately."

The first hero's abilities activate before any other ability in battle can activate.

Ryupeco11 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 11, 2009, 09:34:00 PM »

so if I use agur(which i actually do) and place an enh. on ehud. and make a RA with /ehud I can actually choose a blocker before the placed enh. activates?

lightningninja · « **Reply #14 on:** December 11, 2009, 09:35:15 PM »

That's what I'm trying to get confirmation on, but I believe the answer is yes.

Ryupeco11 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 11, 2009, 09:37:59 PM »

oh ok. that would be kinda awesome. I can't wait to find out too! ^_^

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #16 on:** December 11, 2009, 09:58:56 PM »

We know the order of abilities for hero abilities goes as follows:

1. Normal Abilities that do not add cards into battle.
2. Gained Abilities that do not add cards into battle.
3. Weapon Class enhancements
4. Banding abilities
5. Gained Banding abilities
6. Chose the Blocker abilities
7. Gained Choose the Blocker abilities.

I still say enhancements placed by Elishana and Co. activate around the same time as weapons, but LN and Maly say they activate absolutely last. They are fine if they work around 4, but completely broken if they activate after 7. CTB and then kill him before he can do anything? Im all for combos, but that is too much.

lightningninja · « **Reply #17 on:** December 11, 2009, 10:01:13 PM »

You still have the chance to interrupt. I don't think it's as broken as using obedience of noah before battle and making them use a character that they can't use ANYTHING on.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #18 on:** December 11, 2009, 10:11:06 PM »

just use CBN ones. Good fight.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #19 on:** December 12, 2009, 12:57:57 AM »

Fortunately, there are no CBN Gold enhancements to be placed on Ehud except Deborah's Directive and Sword against Sword, neither of which kill an EC. However, Gathered Agur to Ehud @ SaS, choose blocker and immediately make him fight your FbtN EC. In order to not get the rescue, your opponent would have to either come up with the numbers to kill your EC and then come up with the numbers to kill your band, or kill both Heroes with CBN Enhancements from the side-battle. And it's every turn.

I'm going to go build a deck, ttyl.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #20 on:** December 12, 2009, 01:21:35 AM »

Except that Agur would then get negated, and SaS isn't discarded for Agur to place (Unless type 2) so you probably cant do it but every other turn.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #21 on:** December 12, 2009, 09:36:42 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on December 12, 2009, 12:57:57 AM

Fortunately, there are no CBN Gold enhancements to be placed on Ehud except Deborah's Directive and Sword against Sword, neither of which kill an EC. However, Gathered Agur to Ehud @ SaS, choose blocker and immediately make him fight your FbtN EC. In order to not get the rescue, your opponent would have to either come up with the numbers to kill your EC and then come up with the numbers to kill your band, or kill both Heroes with CBN Enhancements from the side-battle. And it's every turn.

I'm going to go build a deck, ttyl.

I had already thought of that EXACT combo after i posted this. Ask RR.

Also another thing pol. If you want to help me prove this is broken, consider this. You dont have to place the enhancement ON ehud. You can place it on somone else who bands to him, because according to maly, it would activate after CTB, which means you can band to your hearts content before the enhancement goes off.

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on December 12, 2009, 01:21:35 AM

Except that Agur would then get negated, and SaS isn't discarded for Agur to place (Unless type 2) so you probably cant do it but every other turn.

The fact that Agur would be negated is true, so just use a different EC in the side battle. Also, Enhancements placed by Agur and Co. are discarded as soon as they activate, meaning you can place it from the discard again next turn.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #22 on:** December 12, 2009, 12:03:59 PM »

Except that Sword against Sword is CBN and Gathering is CBN.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #23 on:** December 12, 2009, 12:20:59 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on December 12, 2009, 12:03:59 PM

Except that Sword against Sword is CBN and Gathering is CBN.

Actually I see your point, it wouldnt matter that Agur isnt CBN, because SaS is CBN.

And trust me, I've known about using gathering for this combo doing it for... probably a year now or more with Elishana (since he requires a hero, not an artifact). XD I've been trying to find the BEST combo to use placement in, But, I've moved on to other goals now... such as making a 100+ card defensive behemoth actually work within normal time limits.

sk · « **Reply #24 on:** December 12, 2009, 08:07:42 PM »

Spoke to Bryon at his local tournament today, and had printouts of various quotes from this thread.

His thoughts:
- Triggers shouldn't happen before banding, or else cards like the Demon Discard LS would work before the banding happens.
- The use of "immediately" made him question it happening after everything else.
- He thinks that if they were to make similar cards in the future, they would likely be specially classified as 'pre-load' cards (forgot what actual term he used), and all 'pre-load' cards would have their own spot on that list.

lightningninja · « **Reply #25 on:** December 13, 2009, 07:28:52 PM »

Okay so for NOW... like if I go to a tournament tomorrow... can I use Ehud with furnace of God's wrath and choose the blocker and then discard him?

galadgawyn · « **Reply #26 on:** December 13, 2009, 07:49:52 PM »

I remember asking and trying to nail down when they activate 2 and 3 years ago but never got an answer. I also would still like to know.

I think those combos are powerful but not broken. Could the placed card be considered in with the group of "gained" abilities so it is not last but keeps triggers consistent?

sk · « **Reply #27 on:** December 13, 2009, 08:10:18 PM »

They shouldn't be considered 'gained' abilities, but the triggered ability step might be placed just before or after that step. It sounded like the playtesters are going to need to discuss this before we'll get an answer (he's previously mentioned the playtesters discussing another ordering issue on this list for the new REG).

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #28 on:** December 14, 2009, 11:29:27 AM »

That's all well and good but there are tournaments going on now that need an interim answer so judges know how to rule.

lightningninja · « **Reply #29 on:** December 15, 2009, 04:08:31 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on December 14, 2009, 11:29:27 AM

That's all well and good but there are tournaments going on now that need an interim answer so judges know how to rule.

Exactly.

Sean · « **Reply #30 on:** January 10, 2010, 12:21:25 AM »

I'm bumping this because it needs to be answered last year.

lightningninja · « **Reply #31 on:** January 10, 2010, 12:22:13 AM »

Yeah thanks Sean... I'm building decks with some of this kind of stuff too.... have you decided yet playtesters?

SirNobody · « **Reply #32 on:** January 10, 2010, 12:46:09 AM »

Hey,

I still agree with myself

There has been no discussion of the topic amongst the other playtesters that I am aware of.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Gabe · « **Reply #33 on:** January 10, 2010, 01:02:24 AM »

There you have it folks, Tim + Tim + nobody else wanting to touch it = OFFICIAL

lightningninja · « **Reply #34 on:** January 10, 2010, 01:14:03 AM »

Come on Gabe.... you know you want to touch it.

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #35 on:** January 10, 2010, 01:38:02 AM »

He touched the butt!

christiangamer25 · « **Reply #36 on:** January 10, 2010, 01:40:34 AM »

Sean · « **Reply #37 on:** January 10, 2010, 10:17:19 AM »

Quote from: SirNobody

There has been no discussion of the topic amongst the other playtesters that I am aware of.

That's discouraging.

STAMP · « **Reply #38 on:** January 10, 2010, 12:21:39 PM »

I guarantee they'll start talking about it once one of you invent a broken combo that wins every tournament you enter.

So get to work!

Master KChief · « **Reply #39 on:** January 10, 2010, 02:24:05 PM »

its already been invented. probably why the OP originally asked.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #40 on:** January 10, 2010, 03:31:52 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on January 10, 2010, 02:24:05 PM

its already been invented. probably why the OP originally asked.

Oh, yes it has.

mjwolfe · « **Reply #41 on:** January 10, 2010, 03:48:44 PM »

I played a deck like this two years ago at Bryon's tournament and he assured me that my placed enhancement happened before the choose the blocker happened.

Mike

Master KChief · « **Reply #42 on:** January 10, 2010, 05:00:54 PM »

triggered enhancements happen after ctb.

lightningninja · « **Reply #43 on:** January 10, 2010, 05:04:40 PM »

Bryon... can I get an official on Mike's assessment?

sk · « **Reply #44 on:** January 10, 2010, 06:48:56 PM »

I think Mike got his ruling at a tournament we missed, as I don't remember hearing that, and Bryon didn't specifically say that when we talked couple of months ago (quoted below), though it is consistent. It sounded like Bryon wants the playtesters to revisit it, but I'm not sure if it was just a passing comment or actually on a to-do list.

Quote from: sk on December 12, 2009, 08:07:42 PM

Spoke to Bryon at his local tournament today, and had printouts of various quotes from this thread.

His thoughts:
- Triggers shouldn't happen before banding, or else cards like the Demon Discard LS would work before the banding happens.
- The use of "immediately" made him question it happening after everything else.
- He thinks that if they were to make similar cards in the future, they would likely be specially classified as 'pre-load' cards (forgot what actual term he used), and all 'pre-load' cards would have their own spot on that list.

Now that "immediately" is essentially meaningless, I'm not really sure where he stands. Bryon?

Ryupeco11 · « **Reply #45 on:** January 10, 2010, 11:49:54 PM »

Quote from: Sean on January 10, 2010, 12:21:25 AM

I'm bumping this because it needs to be answered last year.

I agree!

Bryon · « **Reply #46 on:** January 12, 2010, 02:55:43 PM »

As worded, the "preloaded" enhancement activates as an automatic response to the character entering battle. Responses to characters entering battle happen AFTER all other abilities complete.

That being said, there MIGHT be a new rule about "preload" similar to this:

"Preload allows a player to place an enhancement on a character of matching brigade in his territory. That enhancement activates as it enters battle. Immediately after the preloaded enhancement takes effect, discard that enhancement."

That would make them happen at the same time as weapons. If this rule were to be written, it would mean that the sentences on Agur and friends (the next time that hero enters battle, that enhancement activates and is discarded immediately) would be treated as clarifying text, and not really a special ability in itself (similar to the clarifying text on Hunger and the pale green Prince of this World). It also means that those abilities could be a lot shorter in the future. While it is unlikely that Cactus will make many more new cards with that type of ability, the possibility of reprints does exist.

This is under discussion by the playtesters now. I'll let you know what becomes of it. You are free to voice your preference, but only if you promise not to be bent out of shape if it doesn't end up how you want it.

For the record, I'll be perfectly happy either way.

lightningninja · « **Reply #47 on:** January 12, 2010, 03:11:22 PM »

Thanks Bryon, that contribution was much needed. I think it should be ruled as it is now, AFTER hero abilities, but I'm fine either way.

Ryupeco11 · « **Reply #48 on:** January 12, 2010, 04:51:58 PM »

I'm fine either way it's ruled but i just wanted to know since it affects my deck ^_^

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Author Topic: Can I get a final ruling on triggered enhancements? Playtesters? (Read 6343 times)

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