Author Topic: Burial Shroud (Read 10478 times)

TheHobbit13 · « **on:** December 19, 2011, 04:37:22 PM »

It says,"Holder may not make a rescue attempt or be attacked..." Now all I am wondering is what does this exactly mean for the holder? Is the card restricting all rescue attempts straight up or is it saying that anything that would normally be a rescue attempt cannot be made. Basically I am wondering if you can battle challenge an opponent even if they have lost souls.

I am Knot a Blonde! · « **Reply #1 on:** December 19, 2011, 04:42:28 PM »

since it is targeting the player, it is a restrict ability.

STAMP · « **Reply #2 on:** December 19, 2011, 04:52:32 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on December 19, 2011, 04:37:22 PM

It says,"Holder may not make a rescue attempt or be attacked..." Now all I am wondering is what does this exactly mean for the holder? Is the card restricting all rescue attempts straight up or is it saying that anything that would normally be a rescue attempt cannot be made. Basically I am wondering if you can battle challenge an opponent even if they have lost souls.

If you have access to those lost souls, then you cannot attack.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 19, 2011, 06:46:57 PM »

Okay thanks.

megamanlan · « **Reply #4 on:** December 19, 2011, 09:57:35 PM »

My Understanding is that u can't Battle at all, Rescue Attemps or Battle Challenges. At least that's how I understood it, and that's what I heard from my tourney, I could be wrong though.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #5 on:** December 21, 2011, 05:50:39 PM »

To show how rulings are different we have always played if it is a battle challenge then you may attack.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #6 on:** December 21, 2011, 05:52:07 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on December 21, 2011, 05:50:39 PM

To show how rulings are different we have always played if it is a battle challenge then you may attack.

I have always played this way as well. A literal reading of the card lead me to this conclusion.

STAMP · « **Reply #7 on:** December 21, 2011, 06:09:32 PM »

Burial Shroud (Ap)
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder may not make a rescue attempt or be attacked. May be used twice. • Play As: Restrict holder from making a rescue attempt. Restrict opponent from attacking holder. May be used twice. • Identifiers: None • Verse: John 20:4-5

Okay, restrict is new. So now let's revisit what can and cannot happen when a battle challenge ensues:

1. If site access is all that is needed to gain access, does the restrict carryover and restrict the attacker from adding an access site to battle?
2. If the blocker draws a lost soul, is the blocker restricted from putting the lost soul in LoB?
3. If the blocker must discard cards from deck and one is a lost soul, is the lost soul discarded overriding game rule?

Keep in mind that Burial Shroud's "play-as" is restricting the holder. Does that mean the blocker can change a battle challenge to a rescue attempt?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #8 on:** December 21, 2011, 06:56:49 PM »

1.) Almost certainly yes
2.) It's put there, but I'd rule it couldn't be rescued. Don't take my word on this one though.
3.) There's no game rule that LS discarded from deck are put in LoB

STAMP · « **Reply #9 on:** December 21, 2011, 07:52:42 PM »

The questions are mostly hypothetical, but I think we can rule quite easily regarding any direct action that the attacker makes cannot be performed if it causes the BC to change to an RA, e.g. add ing site to battle for site access or playing Harvest Time.

It's the two options of whether the attacker can cause it indirectly or the blocker can cause it, directly or indirectly.

I can almost be agreeable that the restrict will work for the former.

It's the latter that's the ultimate pickle.

megamanlan · « **Reply #10 on:** December 23, 2011, 09:22:44 PM »

I play it as 'No player may make a Rescue Attempt or Battle Challenge'
Does anyone know if when this card came out (Apostles) could u make a Battle Challenge?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #11 on:** December 23, 2011, 09:35:35 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on December 23, 2011, 09:22:44 PM

I play it as 'No player may make a Rescue Attempt or Battle Challenge'
Does anyone know if when this card came out (Apostles) could u make a Battle Challenge?

As far as I know, BC's have been around since the beginning. Also, the way you play does not reflect what the card actually says.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #12 on:** December 24, 2011, 01:04:36 AM »

Battle Challenges were allowed, but I always ruled this card as a "regardless." You may begin a BC, but it will remain a BC regardless of circumstantial changes during the BC.

megamanlan · « **Reply #13 on:** December 24, 2011, 01:20:23 AM »

I'm asking because if it wasn't that would have an effect on the Card.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #14 on:** December 25, 2011, 05:37:47 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on December 24, 2011, 01:20:23 AM

I'm asking because if it wasn't that would have an effect on the Card.

Actually, no. Since it specifically says "Rescue attempt," battle challenges are allowed, no matter when the PTB created them.

Praeceps · « **Reply #15 on:** February 07, 2012, 12:07:20 AM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on December 25, 2011, 05:37:47 PM

Quote from: megamanlan on December 24, 2011, 01:20:23 AM
I'm asking because if it wasn't that would have an effect on the Card.
Actually, no. Since it specifically says "Rescue attempt," battle challenges are allowed, no matter when the PTB created them.

Actually...It says "Holder may not make a rescue attempt or be attacked." This would mean that while the Holder could initiate a BC that could never become a RA, his opponent(s) cannot do either. A Battle Challenge counts as an attack after all.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #16 on:** February 07, 2012, 12:24:29 AM »

Quote from: Praeceps on February 07, 2012, 12:07:20 AM

Quote from: SomeKittens on December 25, 2011, 05:37:47 PM
Quote from: megamanlan on December 24, 2011, 01:20:23 AM
I'm asking because if it wasn't that would have an effect on the Card.
Actually, no. Since it specifically says "Rescue attempt," battle challenges are allowed, no matter when the PTB created them.
Actually...It says "Holder may not make a rescue attempt or be attacked." This would mean that while the Holder could initiate a BC that could never become a RA, his opponent(s) cannot do either. A Battle Challenge counts as an attack after all.

Exactly. The card does give the holder an advantage, especially during a soul drought.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #17 on:** February 07, 2012, 11:07:37 AM »

Quote from: Praeceps on February 07, 2012, 12:07:20 AM

Quote from: SomeKittens on December 25, 2011, 05:37:47 PM
Quote from: megamanlan on December 24, 2011, 01:20:23 AM
I'm asking because if it wasn't that would have an effect on the Card.
Actually, no. Since it specifically says "Rescue attempt," battle challenges are allowed, no matter when the PTB created them.
Actually...It says "Holder may not make a rescue attempt or be attacked." This would mean that while the Holder could initiate a BC that could never become a RA, his opponent(s) cannot do either. A Battle Challenge counts as an attack after all.

That's exactly what I'm saying...? MML was trying to argue that the holder of the card couldn't make a BC either.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #18 on:** February 07, 2012, 11:10:50 AM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 07, 2012, 11:07:37 AM

Quote from: Praeceps on February 07, 2012, 12:07:20 AM
Actually...It says "Holder may not make a rescue attempt or be attacked." This would mean that while the Holder could initiate a BC that could never become a RA, his opponent(s) cannot do either. A Battle Challenge counts as an attack after all.
That's exactly what I'm saying...? MML was trying to argue that the holder of the card couldn't make a BC either.

I understood what you meant, but the way you phrased it, it did sound like you thought nobody could make a battle challenge.

Red Warrior · « **Reply #19 on:** February 07, 2012, 03:15:22 PM »

Rescue Attempt
A rescue attempt is the effort to recover a Lost Soul from the Land of Bondage by battle. A rescue attempt battle is initiated when a Hero is placed in the Field of Battle. The battle is considered a rescue attempt if a Hero has access to a Lost Soul at any point in the battle. A player is allowed one rescue attempt per turn unless a card states otherwise.

Quote

...If the blocker draws a lost soul, is the blocker restricted from putting the lost soul in LoB?...

Quote

...It's put there, but I'd rule it couldn't be rescued. Don't take my word on this one though....

To throw my two cents in, I would tend to restrict the act of rescuing the soul (battle resolution) not actions leading to that rescue (i.e. return hero to territory/keep lost soul from being placed in LOB).

I'm usually the very last person to complain about anything... but there has been a strange habit the last month of important pending questions not coming to a conclusion. Can somebody tell me if this is at least under consideration?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #20 on:** February 07, 2012, 04:32:34 PM »

Quote from: Red Warrior on February 07, 2012, 03:15:22 PM

To throw my two cents in, I would tend to restrict the act of rescuing the soul (battle resolution) not actions leading to that rescue (i.e. return hero to territory/keep lost soul from being placed in LOB).

This is how it has been ruled, at least in Florida and Connecticut.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #21 on:** February 07, 2012, 06:57:48 PM »

If that's the case then you should be able to attack, even with a Hero that has Soul access.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #22 on:** February 07, 2012, 10:02:24 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on February 07, 2012, 06:57:48 PM

If that's the case then you should be able to attack, even with a Hero that has Soul access.

I both agree and disagree with this statement, since I can see it going either way. Burial Shroud does say make a rescue attempt, and I'm not sure what the implications of that are if the BC turns into an RA during battle. I'm not suggesting that the soul should be rescuable, rather, I could see this logic being used to say that the battle would continue as a battle challenge, and instead of the Heroes being restricted from being in the rescue attempt at this point, the heroes are simply restricted from rescuing a lost soul. On the other hand, I could see the restrict just kicking the heroes out of battle right away if it turned into a rescue attempt. I'm inclined to go with the latter.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #23 on:** February 07, 2012, 11:47:20 PM »

I'm glad this is coming out now. There's been a wire loose in BS's wording for a long time and just now are we picking up on it. What is the mechanism by which players are restricted from making a RA? That's a super-tricky question.

lp670sv · « **Reply #24 on:** February 08, 2012, 12:02:26 AM »

Isn't "Restrict" old wording for protect? Can't we reasonably conclude that Burial Shroud protects lost souls from rescue by heroes?

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Author Topic: Burial Shroud (Read 10478 times)

TheHobbit13

TheHobbit13

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy