Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Deck Metrics on May 18, 2010, 08:41:22 PM
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My blue hero is about to be removed from battle by Bad Decision which will place my hero in an empty site. The last good enchancement I played was Ehud's Dagger which is basically a negate. Does Book of Jashar negate Bad Decision? My opponent claims that since Book of Jashar doesn't say interrupt or negate on it, I cannot negate? Who's correct?
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additionally : if KOT or another fbtn enters battle if BOJ Copies CBN is BOJ Negated b4 it copies or not?
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It would copy ehud.
If the enhancement copied was not CBN then jashar would revert.
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so a copied CBN mean BOJ CBN?
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Please stop with all the abbreviations, I have no clue what they stand for and it would take me even longer time to look them up. Can someone seriously answer this question, please!!!!!!!
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I don't think that's right... unless there is an errata on Book of Jashar than I don't think either situation would work. It's kinda like transfiguration. You can't play it as a negate card even though, if you let it play out, it would end up negating the enhancement.
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I don't think that's right... unless there is an errata on Book of Jashar than I don't think either situation would work. It's kinda like transfiguration. You can't play it as a negate card even though, if you let it play out, it would end up negating the enhancement.
I don't think so because Book of Jashar basically "becomes" a Dagger of Ehud thus negating my opponent's Bad Decision.
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Book of Jashar is a unique card. I think different rules apply to it. However, Redemption is not a game that allows things to happen that would be possible after they occurred (and thank goodness because I didn't even understand that sentence). The only way I can see Book of Jashar being able to copy a negate during "special initiative" is if it's ability somehow activated before entering play, which I'm pretty sure it does not unless the "ability" is actually an "identifier", and a dynamic one at that.
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Capture abilities are instantaneous [new reg] and since the character is in the process of being removed from battle the only option he has is to play a negate or interrupt. But Book isn't either, it's just a copy ability. I would agree if it stated "interrupt, then copy" something along those lines would make sense- interrupting the Bad Decision; then copying the dagger to negate the Bad Decision.
The Bad Decision is waiting to resolve and it gives my opponent initiative by either playing a negate or interrupt card... in which Book of Jashar isn't either. How could a "copy" ability interrupt another card from resolving to become a negate card itself? This logic doesn't make sense to me.
An interrupt or negate card must be played during the Battle Phase. Interrupt cards can only be played if the player has initiative. Initiative may be passed back to you if the character(s) being discarded, captured, or placed back in your hand put you in a situation where you are not winning. In most cases, an interrupt special ability must be played on a character being removed from battle, leaving no character in battle. Play the interrupt card on the character being removed from battle prior to physically removing the character. If an interrupt card cannot be played, the cards targeted for removal from battle are then physically removed. (these are pieces from the reg)
While the character is currently losing the battle because he's being "captured", he player only has 2 options to do- either interrupt it or negate it. Again, Book of Jashar is not an interrupt or a negate ability.
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Book of Jashar is a unique card. I think different rules apply to it. However, Redemption is not a game that allows things to happen that would be possible after they occurred (and thank goodness because I didn't even understand that sentence). The only way I can see Book of Jashar being able to copy a negate during "special initiative" is if it's ability somehow activated before entering play, which I'm pretty sure it does not unless the "ability" is actually an "identifier", and a dynamic one at that.
what do you mean by "identifier" & "dynamic"?
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Capture abilities are instantaneous [new reg] and since the character is in the process of being removed from battle the only option he has is to play a negate or interrupt. But Book isn't either, it's just a copy ability. I would agree if it stated "interrupt, then copy" something along those lines would make sense- interrupting the Bad Decision; then copying the dagger to negate the Bad Decision.
The Bad Decision is waiting to resolve and it gives my opponent initiative by either playing a negate or interrupt card... in which Book of Jashar isn't either. How could a "copy" ability interrupt another card from resolving to become a negate card itself? This logic doesn't make sense to me.
An interrupt or negate card must be played during the Battle Phase. Interrupt cards can only be played if the player has initiative. Initiative may be passed back to you if the character(s) being discarded, captured, or placed back in your hand put you in a situation where you are not winning. In most cases, an interrupt special ability must be played on a character being removed from battle, leaving no character in battle. Play the interrupt card on the character being removed from battle prior to physically removing the character. If an interrupt card cannot be played, the cards targeted for removal from battle are then physically removed. (these are pieces from the reg)
While the character is currently losing the battle because he's being "captured", he player only has 2 options to do- either interrupt it or negate it. Again, Book of Jashar is not an interrupt or a negate ability.
disagree
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But by playing book of jashar it would become a direct copy which means that it would interrupt and prevent an enhancement. It would be the same if you had played an interrupt battle and draw three cards if u play book of jashar on that you would then interrupt the battle AGAIN and draw three more cards.
YES IT WOULD DEFINITELY NEGATE AN ENHANCEMENT
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But by playing book of jashar it would become a direct copy which means that it would interrupt and prevent an enhancement. It would be the same if you had played an interrupt battle and draw three cards if u play book of jashar on that you would then interrupt the battle AGAIN and draw three more cards.
YES IT WOULD DEFINITELY NEGATE AN ENHANCEMENT
Disagree, it's not the same. It isn't an interrupt card. If the Bad Decision isn't interrupted or negated from the next enhancement (in which Book of Jashar isn't) the capture is instanteous.
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but book of jashar becomes a negate instantaneously as soon as its played
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but book of jashar becomes a negate instantaneously as soon as its played
Get a real moderator to answer it, it's nothing personal.
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but book of jashar becomes a negate instantaneously as soon as its played
No it wouldn't
Book's ability would make it a negate, but your hero wold have to be in battle for the ability to complete and negate the evil enhancement.
Just like transfiguration isn't a negate card
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but book of jashar becomes a negate instantaneously as soon as its played
No it wouldn't
Book's ability would make it a negate, but your hero wold have to be in battle for the ability to complete and negate the evil enhancement.
Just like transfiguration isn't a negate card
Agreed, the hero isn't in battle it's being captured by Bad Decision. Which is why it needs to be negated and/or interrupted right away but the player can't be playing Jashar as if it was a negate card just because they think they have initiative.
But then again, I'd appreciate it if a moderator just gave us the final word.
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[new reg]
Isn't official.
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but book of jashar becomes a negate instantaneously as soon as its played
No it wouldn't
Book's ability would make it a negate, but your hero wold have to be in battle for the ability to complete and negate the evil enhancement.
Just like transfiguration isn't a negate card
isn't the hero still in battle since battle hasn't resolved and I have initiative? Otherwise just give capture cannot be interrupted, prevented or negated. I still disagree.
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Ok, what does the Book of Jashar's special ability literally say. Let's start with that. (Please write it).
Fact 1:
A negate has been previously played.
Fact 2:
A character is being *CAPTURED*; of which, is an immediate action and thus can only be interrupted or negated.
Does the Book of Jashar have "Interrupt" in it's special ability? If not, then the enhancement itself does not enter play/battle until AFTER the discard has resolved. Since it's after the discard ability has resolved, the character is no longer in battle and thus can no longer be "Enhanced" so BoJ is not played ;)
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Ok, what does the Book of Jashar's special ability literally say. Let's start with that. (Please write it).
Fact 1:
A negate has been previously played.
Fact 2:
A character is being discarded; of which, is an immediate action and thus can only be interrupted or negated.
Does the Book of Jashar have "Interrupt" in it's special ability? If not, then the enhancement itself does not enter play/battle until AFTER the discard has resolved. Since it's after the discard ability has resolved, the character is no longer in battle and thus can no longer be "Enhanced" so BoJ is not played ;)
The character is actually being captured not discarded. But we're on the same page, how can the book enter into battle without an interrupt ability? Only if and after the character has already been captured but then... whoops too late! That character couldn't even play the book to begin with since it won't be in battle anymore.
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Ok, what does the Book of Jashar's special ability literally say. Let's start with that. (Please write it).
Fact 1:
A negate has been previously played.
Fact 2:
A character is being discarded; of which, is an immediate action and thus can only be interrupted or negated.
Does the Book of Jashar have "Interrupt" in it's special ability? If not, then the enhancement itself does not enter play/battle until AFTER the discard has resolved. Since it's after the discard ability has resolved, the character is no longer in battle and thus can no longer be "Enhanced" so BoJ is not played ;)
The character is actually being captured not discarded. But we're on the same page, how can the book enter into battle without an interrupt ability? Only if and after the character has already been captured but then... whoops too late! That character couldn't even play the book to begin with since it won't be in battle anymore.
I caught the "Discard" error and modified the message, but you must have hit quote before I could finish the modification :doh:
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But since it is my initiative when you capture/discard me I can play an interrupt or negate if the capture/discard is not CBN - ok? Book of Jashar could negate it if there was a negate beforehand because as soon as you play it is the card played before it. It is that card it is no longer book of jashar it is that card, "an exact duplicate"
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But since it is my initiative when you capture/discard me I can play an interrupt or negate if the capture/discard is not CBN - ok? Book of Jashar could negate it if there was a negate beforehand because as soon as you play it is the card played before it. It is that card it is no longer book of jashar it is that card, "an exact duplicate"
agreed, it becomes a negate with interrupt.
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Book of Jashar is a unique card. I think different rules apply to it. However, Redemption is not a game that allows things to happen that would be possible after they occurred (and thank goodness because I didn't even understand that sentence). The only way I can see Book of Jashar being able to copy a negate during "special initiative" is if it's ability somehow activated before entering play, which I'm pretty sure it does not unless the "ability" is actually an "identifier", and a dynamic one at that.
what do you mean by "identifier" & "dynamic"?
An "identifier" (or "attribute") is something that can be found in the identifier line. Anything in this line cannot be negated and is active outside of battle. Take Emperor Vitellius for example:
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fredemptionreg.com%2FREG%2FLinkedDocuments%2FEmperor%2520Vitellius.gif&hash=64389a45da491ef2940b633a731db2a3602ec7bb)
"X = NUMBER OF GOOD BRIGADES OPPONENT HAS IN PLAY" is not an ability that can be negated, but rather a definition of the card.
"Dynamic" means that its effect changes continuously based on external factors. In the case of Book of Jashar being dynamic (which I'm pretty sure it isn't at the moment), that would mean that whenever you play an enhancement in battle, BoJ's identity would change accordingly.
So if Book of Jashar's "ability" was really a dynamic identifier (or attribute or abilifier or special function or whatever you want to call it), then it would always exist as a copy of the last enhancement you played in battle, no matter what location it was in.
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It would copy ehud.
I don't think that's right... unless there is an errata on Book of Jashar than I don't think either situation would work.
Book's ability would make it a negate, but your hero wold have to be in battle for the ability to complete and negate the evil enhancement.
So what we have here are 3 "major players" who disagree on whether BoJ would be allowed to be played (as a negate) on a character who is being removed by special ability. Personally, I agree with RCuz and JSB23 that it would NOT be allowed to be played. But unless RR would like to reconsider his first impression, we'll need a PTB to rule on this in order to be considered "official".
My idea is that the "special initiative" to play a card when you are being removed from battle ONLY allows a "negate" or "interrupt" type card to be played. Book of Jashar is NOT classified in the REG (new or old) as a "negate" or "interrupt" type of card. Therefore it can't be played.
As to the argument that as soon as you play it, it becomes that type of card, I don't think that the check happens after the card is played, but before. We don't get to play any card we want in these situations and then see afterward whether they were negate cards. We have to check them while they're still in our hand, and if they aren't negate cards, we don't get to play them.
So what do you say, RR. Convinced, or do you still think it is allowed to be played?
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I'm iffy on it because unlike transfig (Main argument I saw) which is a banding card and on its own negates nothing, BOJ instantly becomes a Negate. I'm on the fence about this truth be told but seems like it'd work then again, I can be wrong.
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only an interrupt card can be played in the described situation. boj is not an interrupt card.
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I would argue that it can't be played because it only becomes an interrupt once it hits the table, but the special initiative rule says that you can only play and interrupt card, which Book of Jashar is not yet, so you can't even play it to become the interrupt, so therefore you can't interrupt with it even though it would become an interrupt when you played it.
However if a card (that wasn't an enhancement, Artifact maybe) said "Interrupt the battle and play the next enhancement." you could then play Book of Jashar and it would become the negate.
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But since it is my initiative when you capture/discard me I can play an interrupt or negate if the capture/discard is not CBN - ok? Book of Jashar could negate it if there was a negate beforehand because as soon as you play it is the card played before it. It is that card it is no longer book of jashar it is that card, "an exact duplicate"
But the Book of Jashar is NOT a negate or interrupt card, so you CAN'T play it. Play meaning it isn't a copy of Ehud's Dagger until you PLAY it. BoJ does not interrupt the capture card, therefore it cannot be played until AFTER the capture card has been resolved; since the capture card resolves first, there is no hero to PLAY BoJ on.
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I'm iffy on it
only an interrupt card can be played in the described situation. boj is not an interrupt card.
With RR being only an "iffy" dissenter, and the addition of MKC to RCuz, JSB23, and myself, I think we can now say that the correct ruling on this would be that Book of Jashar would NOT be allowed to be played by a character who is being removed by special ability. Unless a PTB posts to the contrary, hosts should be able to consider this authoritative.
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I guess the real question here is as mr. underwood stated, when is a card declared an interrupt/negate for check purposes.
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the special ability does not say interrupt. thus it can't. my 2 cents.
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the special ability does not say interrupt. thus it can't. my 2 cents.
+1
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we'll need a PTB to rule on this in order to be considered "official".
What is a PTB? A poll? I don't know.
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powers that be. the people that make the official rulings.
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Well, not to throw a wrench in things but I agree with RR. I think we need to know how the copy mechanism on Book of Jashar works before we can definitively say whether it works or not. But I believe if it becomes a negate, it should be able to negate.
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there is no way to know what boj will be until it is played. boj does not inherently have an interrupt ability, therefore you cannot use it as an interrupt on your hero being removed from battle.
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If BoJ's ability was a dynamic identifier...:dunno:
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there is no way to know what boj will be until it is played.
I disagree, we already know what the last enhancement played was, it was a negate. We know it will be a negate.
boj does not inherently have an interrupt ability
Correct however it gains one from the previously played negate.
therefore you cannot use it as an interrupt on your hero being removed from battle.
Therefore, I can use it as an interrupt on my hero being removed from battle.
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If BoJ's ability was a dynamic identifier...:dunno:
but it isn't. identifiers cannot be negated. and there is no question to whether we have treated boj as negateable in the past.
I disagree, we already know what the last enhancement played was, it was a negate. We know it will be a negate.
what it will be and what it currently is are two completely different things. both madness and deafening spirit will both be evil characters after the effect has been carried out. however, you cannot block with either from hand as an evil character.
Correct however it gains one from the previously played negate.
correct. only then does it become a negate. however, it must still be played into battle properly, and that is with initiative. you do not have initiative after being removed from battle unless it is an interrupt. boj is not an interrupt. if you agree with this point, then the rest is logical.
Therefore, I can use it as an interrupt on my hero being removed from battle.
not unless it is an interrupt in its current unplayed state. which it is not.
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there is no way to know what boj will be until it is played.
I disagree, we already know what the last enhancement played was, it was a negate. We know it will be a negate.
Except its SA doesnt activate until it is played, you can ONLY play an interrupt/negate in these situations, not something that "will eventually end up as a negate"
Since its first ability is not an interrupt, it cannot be allowed to procede to the second step of copying the previous enhancement.
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Well I will hold my position as the sole real dissenter until some one completely official answers this. I want to know the real answer and consensus answers have not worked well for me in the past. I view the ability as an identifier, it defines what it does.
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what it will be and what it currently is are two completely different things. both madness and deafening spirit will both be evil characters after the effect has been carried out. however, you cannot block with either from hand as an evil character.
This is a good example to show that we must treat cards as they are, not what they will be.
I view the ability as an identifier, it defines what it does.
It obviously CAN'T be an identifier because everyone knows that you can negate Book of Jashar. And everyone also knows that you can NOT negate identifiers.
What is a PTB? A poll? I don't know.
The "Powers That Be" would basically be Rob, Bryon, Mike B., and any of the playtesters when they specifically state that they are informing the board of a decision that was made on the playtester board.
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Does the Book of Jashar have "Interrupt" in it's special ability? If not, then the enhancement itself does not enter play/battle until AFTER the discard has resolved. Since it's after the discard ability has resolved, the character is no longer in battle and thus can no longer be "Enhanced" so BoJ is not played ;)
Correct
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I fully accept this conclusion, thank you Bryon. :)
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Poor BOJ, you will no longer be a staple in my blue decks. Thanks Bryon! Now I has answer!
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This also means that Answer to Prayer cannot begin a loopsearch for BoJ's...
We should remake BoJ with an identifier rather than an ability! :D
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or, just make boj an interrupt card.
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Does the Book of Jashar have "Interrupt" in it's special ability? If not, then the enhancement itself does not enter play/battle until AFTER the discard has resolved. Since it's after the discard ability has resolved, the character is no longer in battle and thus can no longer be "Enhanced" so BoJ is not played ;)
Correct
Book got nerfed.
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This also means that Answer to Prayer cannot begin a loopsearch for BoJ's...
We should remake BoJ with an identifier rather than an ability! :D
agreed
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or, just make boj an interrupt card.
or that too
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or, just make boj an interrupt card.
or that too
That wouldn't be as cool, because it would only help this problem, and only by giving it more power.
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or, just make boj an interrupt card.
or that too
That wouldn't be as cool, because it would only help this problem, and only by giving it more power.
??? i thought by 'cool' you meant 'more powerful'. i cant think of many sitauations making boj's ability an identifier would be useful...
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??? i thought by 'cool' you meant 'more powerful'.
"Cool" means "generally more powerful but in a discreet way." ;)
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heh heh gotcha. could you describe how making boj an abilifier would be useful in a situation?
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Does the Book of Jashar have "Interrupt" in it's special ability? If not, then the enhancement itself does not enter play/battle until AFTER the discard has resolved. Since it's after the discard ability has resolved, the character is no longer in battle and thus can no longer be "Enhanced" so BoJ is not played ;)
Correct
ok. so that clears things up.
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heh heh gotcha. could you describe how making boj an abilifier would be useful in a situation?
Answer to Prayer, this, and stillness would be so fun in T2...
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We should remake BoJ with an identifier rather than an ability! :D
or, just make boj an interrupt card.
I do believe that if you want to discuss adding to/modifying BoJ you should start a new topic under "New Card Ideas" seeing as the original topic has been answered... :police: Just my :2cents: ;)
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I know that this is an old thread and I'm bringing it back to life but I don't think we ever got an answer. Can the book of jashar duplicate a negate or a territory class enhancement?
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Book of Jashar cannot be played to copy a negate in a SI initiative situation.
Book of Jashar can copy a TC enhancement if it was the last enhancement you played. I didn't re-read the entire thread but I'm guessing someone asked if you play a TC enhancement during prep phase and then BoJ is the first enhancement you play in battle, would it copy? I am pretty sure the answer is yes.