Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Gabe on April 24, 2011, 08:26:47 AM
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I rescue with Abel (Pi). Since I haven't drawn ANB yet, I play the next best thing - Creation of the World. My deck contains multiple copies of Jacob. What do I do with duplicate copies?
a) Add them to battle, their ability activates and they are discarded because they're duplicates
b) Add them to battle and immediately discard them without completing their SA
c) Add them to hand since you cannot put multiple copies into play
d) You can only add the first copy to battle, the rest remain in your deck
Abel (Pi)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Green • Ability: 6 / 5 • Class: None • Special Ability: You may discard a good card from hand to protect Abel from capture and conversion for remainder of the game. Cannot be negated.
Creation of the World (Pa)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Take all Heroes having a Genesis reference out of your draw pile and band them into the Field of Battle. • Play As: Search deck for all Genesis Heroes and band them into battle.
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i would think d
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I would say B
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I would say D.
You have taken all the Genisis hero's out of your deck. After you say have taken the first Jacob, you don't need to take the second one because you have already taken him out.
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I would say B.
It seems the first Jacob that is put down would stick and his SA would work. All other Jacob's after him would be put down on the table and immediately be discarded (because of the game rule, right?).
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A strict reading of the card and the rules gives us answer A. Creation of the World puts them directly from deck to battle. The duplicates rule forces you to Discard all but one if multiples come under your control. They could not have come under your control if they never hit battle. Their SA's were never Negated, so they activate.
Just make sure you don't already have a Jacob in battle when you try this, or all other Jacobs in your deck will go into your hand.
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Since 99% of the time this only impacts Type 2, let's use the current solution of applying erratas to all cards involved, regardless of complaints from Type 1 players.
:P
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Since I can't perform an action that gives me control of dupes (Using James to band to my opponent's Thad/John), I would say they remain in deck.
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Somewhat related: Is the "and band them into battle" specifying the location the search is going or is it a second ability?
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Since I can't perform an action that gives me control of dupes (Using James to band to my opponent's Thad/John), I would say they remain in deck.
You cannot perform may actions that give you dupes.
Creation of the world is a must
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Somewhat related: Is the "and band them into battle" specifying the location the search is going or is it a second ability?
Exactly the point. The default for search is to your hand. Adding to battle is a separate ability that can not be completed after the first Jacob, so the rest stay in hand. This would be a similar situation to ignore. They simply can not enter battle no matter what the SA says.
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Somewhat related: Is the "and band them into battle" specifying the location the search is going or is it a second ability?
Exactly the point. The default for search is to your hand. Adding to battle is a separate ability that can not be completed after the first Jacob, so the rest stay in hand. This would be a similar situation to ignore. They simply can not enter battle no matter what the SA says.
It is not a separate ability because there is no period :P
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It is not a separate ability because there is no period :P
Reach of Desperation does not have a period in between the interrupt, draw and play SAs.
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It is not a separate ability because there is no period :P
Reach of Desperation does not have a period in between the interrupt, draw and play SAs.
and they are not considered separate abilities :P
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It is not a separate ability because there is no period :P
Reach of Desperation does not have a period in between the interrupt, draw and play SAs.
and they are not considered separate abilities :P
They most certainly are. I can interrupt and draw, and then not play the next enhancement.
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It is not a separate ability because there is no period :P
Reach of Desperation does not have a period in between the interrupt, draw and play SAs.
and they are not considered separate abilities :P
They most certainly are. I can interrupt and draw, and then not play the next enhancement.
Ah but Reach says you may in the beginning which refers to each part of the ability
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It is not a separate ability because there is no period :P
Reach of Desperation does not have a period in between the interrupt, draw and play SAs.
and they are not considered separate abilities :P
They most certainly are. I can interrupt and draw, and then not play the next enhancement.
Ah but Reach says you may in the beginning which refers to each part of the ability
Ah, but why does Reach's "may" apply to each part separately and Creation's does not?
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Because Creation doesn't have a "may"?
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at first I thought the answer was A. But upon YMTs observation on multiple abilities I think the answer is C.
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Because Creation doesn't have a "may"?
Again, why does that matter? The point is that each part separated by commas and "and" are treated sepearately. I see no reason for a non-"may" card to be treated differently. I have not looked, but I am certain there are other cards with "and" that have independent SAs.
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There is no "may" so you are forced to complete the entire ability which insta-kills the duplicates
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There is no "may" so you are forced to complete the entire ability which insta-kills the duplicates
Let's say my opponent has TGT active and I have two gold brigade characters in territory and no black ECs in territory, then block a TGT hero with a gold EC. If I play a gold EE that says "Band a black EC into battle," does the EC get to join the battle in spite of TGT simply because the SA does not say "may?"
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There is no "may" so you are forced to complete the entire ability which insta-kills the duplicates
Let's say my opponent has TGT active and I have two gold brigade characters in territory and no black ECs in territory, then block a TGT hero with a gold EC. If I play a gold EE that says "Band a black EC into battle," does the EC get to join the battle in spite of TGT simply because the SA does not say "may?"
No because another ability is preventing that from happening.
The thing you're not getting here is abilities =/= game rule. No dupes is a game rule which can be violated by an ability, ignore is an ability which cannot be violated by another ability (except a negate)
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No because another ability is preventing that from happening.
The thing you're not getting here is abilities =/= game rule. No dupes is a game rule which can be violated by an ability, ignore is an ability which cannot be violated by another ability (except a negate)
The thing that you're not getting here is that it is a game rule that ignored characters cannot enter battle, not a SA.
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No because another ability is preventing that from happening.
The thing you're not getting here is abilities =/= game rule. No dupes is a game rule which can be violated by an ability, ignore is an ability which cannot be violated by another ability (except a negate)
The thing that you're not getting here is that it is a game rule that ignored characters cannot enter battle, not a SA.
That's defining how ignore works :P
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That's defining how ignore works :P
Which is how "game rule" is defined. ;)
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Due to the fact it says Band on Creation I would say D.
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at first I thought the answer was A. But upon YMTs observation on multiple abilities I think the answer is C.
What about the 16 card hand limit.. Could I only search for 16-x heroes (x is the number of cards currently in hand)?
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I vote A, but C makes sense as well.
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As a member of K.I.S.S., I vote 'D'.
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What about the 16 card hand limit.. Could I only search for 16-x heroes (x is the number of cards currently in hand)?
^^ This. If the answer is yes, do I get to choose which?
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The original ruling for the hand limit was that you would stop at 16, regardless of SAs. It seems logical that the same would happen here. First, every hero not currently in battle would be added to battle. Then, you would add the duplicates to your hand until you reached 16. The rest would stay in deck.
I believe the order would be up to the owner of the deck, much like placing under draw pile can be in any order. If you have a card that searches for Jacob, you do not have to pick the first Jacob you see and then stop looking at your deck. You just have to make sure you take out only what you were allowed to search for.
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In this situation, it would be revealed before being added to hand.
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I somehow missed the banding wording the first time I read it. YMT is correct, dupes would go to hand up to 16 your choice and the rest would stay in deck.
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In this situation, it would be revealed before being added to hand.
I agree. If the search card is specific (not just "a card"), then you must reveal the searched card before putting it anywhere.
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Now, I've always played that the card is completely revealed, but I've seen people only reveal it enough to show that it satisfies the requirements. (i.e., showing that it's red brigade enhancement with A Soldiers Prayer)
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Hey,
First, If a card says to search for something and doesn't say what to do with it, there is an implied "and add it to hand" ability. But if a card does say what to do with the card that was searched for there is NOT an add to hand ability. So creation of the world either adds characters to battle or leaves them in the draw pile so there is no way for characters to end up in your hand.
Second, a player may not target a character with a special ability if doing so would result in two copies of the same unique character being present in the same battle. So you can target the first copy of Jacob and thus he would get banded into battle, but you cannot target the second Jacob with Creation of the World, so the second Jacob remains in your draw pile. (Which would be option D from the original post if anyone is keeping track.)
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Thanks for your input, Tim. That's the same conclusion that Jordan and I came to during a game. Neither of us were 100% confident we were correct though at the time so I posted this.
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Hey,
I agree with your first statement, but not your second.
A player may not target a character with a special ability that allows you to pick the target If I play a card like Creation of the World that targets all Gen. Heroes, it targets all copies of Jacob - This very same situation is actually laid out in the rulebook, using Valley of Dry Bones and Moses.
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+1 with RDT
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I don't agree with either of Tim's statements.
Having two different defaults for the same special ability is unnecessarily confusing.
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Hey,
A player may not target a character with a special ability that allows you to pick the target If I play a card like Creation of the World that targets all Gen. Heroes, it targets all copies of Jacob - This very same situation is actually laid out in the rulebook, using Valley of Dry Bones and Moses.
There's a difference between controlling multiple copies of a character in your territory/set-aside area and multiple copies of the same character being in battle. It is possible to end up with two copies of Moses in your territory (which is what Valley of Dry Bones would cause). It is NEVER possible to have two copies of the same character in battle.
I don't agree with either of Tim's statements.
Having two different defaults for the same special ability is unnecessarily confusing.
Neither of my statements actually had to do with defaults, so I'm a little confused by your comment. Could you try to clarify for me?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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There's a difference between controlling multiple copies of a character in your territory/set-aside area and multiple copies of the same character being in battle. It is possible to end up with two copies of Moses in your territory (which is what Valley of Dry Bones would cause). It is NEVER possible to have two copies of the same character in battle.
I'm confused as to why we have a seemingly meaningless distinction between these two, when both Valley of Dry Bones and Creation of the World do essentially the same thing.
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There's a difference between controlling multiple copies of a character in your territory/set-aside area and multiple copies of the same character being in battle. It is possible to end up with two copies of Moses in your territory (which is what Valley of Dry Bones would cause). It is NEVER possible to have two copies of the same character in battle.
I'm confused as to why we have a seemingly meaningless distinction between these two, when both Valley of Dry Bones and Creation of the World do essentially the same thing.
Exactly. Qualifying your targeting based on the destination of said targets is like putting the cart before the horse. :-\
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I don't agree with either of Tim's statements.
Having two different defaults for the same special ability is unnecessarily confusing.
Neither of my statements actually had to do with defaults, so I'm a little confused by your comment. Could you try to clarify for me?
Certainly. ;D
My first statement was an addition to the previous two posts. I don't agree with your second statement for the same reasons as RDT and the STAMP. My second statement about defaults was in reference to the "Implied add to hand" for searches, which is most certainly a default. SAs that say "and" have been treated as separate abilities on cards, rather than conditional abilities. Now you are suggesting that they are indeed conditional because if the 'add to battle" part of the SA is not possible, then the whole SA fizzles. So, either abilities separated by "and" are conditional or they are not.
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Hey,
There's a difference between controlling multiple copies of a character in your territory/set-aside area and multiple copies of the same character being in battle. It is possible to end up with two copies of Moses in your territory (which is what Valley of Dry Bones would cause). It is NEVER possible to have two copies of the same character in battle.
I'm confused as to why we have a seemingly meaningless distinction between these two, when both Valley of Dry Bones and Creation of the World do essentially the same thing.
There are two sides to the duplicate characters rule. The more commonly implemented one is the rule that restricts me from having more than one copy of a unique character that I control. The less common side is that two copies of the same unique character cannot be in the same battle at the same time.
The second side stems from the idea that you can't block a converted Goliath with a non-converted Goliath, and doesn't have anything to do with control of the character so it is necessary in addition to the first side. (It's not necessary in that the game would explode without it but rather that the duplicate characters rule as it has been since it's inception would be significantly different without it.)
Creation of the World creates the unique situation where both sides of the rule apply at the same time. The second side is more restrictive, so it's effect ends up being applied.
If you're really asking why the duplicate characters rule is what it is...I can't help you with that (I'm pretty sure I was against it when it came out but that rule slightly predated my involvement in such discussions).
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly