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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: kariusvega on June 12, 2017, 07:36:53 PM
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Banded characters into battle from hand, then the band is negated
Do the characters kicked out of battle go back to hand or territory? Can they go to either?
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kind of thinking along the lines of dull soul, searched for an evil character, block with that ec, negate dull soul.. ec goes back to deck
not sure why ecs banded from hand to a negated band later wouldn't return to where they came from? ie hand
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i don't see anything in the reg regarding it and there seems to be no definitive ruling on it but i've seen it ruled they go to territory for some reason
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I didn't realize that about the dull LS. So if it is negated and your blocker goes back how do you reset your deck and put the searched card back where it belongs in the deck?
Do you get to block with a different EC?
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I didn't realize that about the dull LS. So if it is negated and your blocker goes back how do you reset your deck and put the searched card back where it belongs in the deck?
Do you get to block with a different EC?
apparently you do not get to block again after the searched out ec is shuffled
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I didn't realize that about the dull LS. So if it is negated and your blocker goes back how do you reset your deck and put the searched card back where it belongs in the deck?
Do you get to block with a different EC?
apparently you do not get to block again after the searched out ec is shuffled
Where did that come from? I'd like to know cause that seems way off. I thought if something was searched out and put in play it had a type of inherent cbi to it being in play, thus a character banded from hand would go to territory if the band is later negated.
Someone care to explain?
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The presenting of a blocker is CBI, which is why someone can't interrupt a pre-block choose the blocker card. (I.E. Ehud rescues and chooses King of Tyrus, KoT negates Ehud but the presenting is inherently CBI).
I have played and seen it played that negating a Dull that grabbed an EC could be negated to send the EC back to deck, but maybe that does need to re-evaluated with further discussion.
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if the presenting of an ec is cbi how could the presented ec be shuffled after dull is negated? wouldn't that be similar to woman with child getting three woes then placing three woes, which has a cbn place ability?
seems like ecs from a negated band banded from hand would go back to hand, and dull soul searched out presented ecs wouldn't be able to be shuffled by negating dull
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The presenting of a blocker is CBI, which is why someone can't interrupt a pre-block choose the blocker card. (I.E. Ehud rescues and chooses King of Tyrus, KoT negates Ehud but the presenting is inherently CBI).
I have played and seen it played that negating a Dull that grabbed an EC could be negated to send the EC back to deck, but maybe that does need to re-evaluated with further discussion.
I don't think that first part is right. Pre-block CTB is CBI, per the REG. But presenting a blocker being CBI is something else - ignoring Dull, that still means getting a blocker from Tower of Thebez isn't stopped by negating Tower of Thebez. Maybe it should be CBI.
Dull doesn't put the card in play, so it's not covered by play abilities being CBI. Making the playing of a card CBI is certainly an option, but that potentially has a major ripple effect.
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The idea of playing 3 Woes to negate a soul to kick your EC out to win a battle feels really bad to me. Worse if you band in Moses or push dragon raid, or Isaiah and Call. I just think it's super lame.
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The idea of playing 3 Woes to negate a soul to kick your EC out to win a battle feels really bad to me. Worse if you band in Moses or push dragon raid, or Isaiah and Call. I just think it's super lame.
all of those options have been real rescues lately
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If i band Jacob to Captain and my opponent blocks with TFG, and I play Grapes, I can make a rescue with Captain because negating the band means Jacob never banded Captain in. This situation is a bit different, but if you negate dull the EC, was never searched for, never entered battle, and therefore you never blocked as far as the game is concerned. I'd say you get to block again.
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Another example I could think of is if (for some reason) you use The Gates of Hell to add a demon into battle (as the first EC) and then it gets negated and discarded by Shipwreck. Would the defender be able to present another EC in this scenario?
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I'd be totally ok with KoT being able to negate his way out of an Ehud selection.
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The presenting of a blocker is CBI, which is why someone can't interrupt a pre-block choose the blocker card. (I.E. Ehud rescues and chooses King of Tyrus, KoT negates Ehud but the presenting is inherently CBI).
I have played and seen it played that negating a Dull that grabbed an EC could be negated to send the EC back to deck, but maybe that does need to re-evaluated with further discussion.
I don't think that first part is right. Pre-block CTB is CBI, per the REG. But presenting a blocker being CBI is something else - ignoring Dull, that still means getting a blocker from Tower of Thebez isn't stopped by negating Tower of Thebez. Maybe it should be CBI.
Dull doesn't put the card in play, so it's not covered by play abilities being CBI. Making the playing of a card CBI is certainly an option, but that potentially has a major ripple effect.
Aggie is correct. I spoke with Justin about his comment because what I hear him saying doesn't line up with my understanding of the rules. He told me all he was trying to say is that a choose the blocker ability played pre-block is CBI by game rule.
The act of choosing a character to put into battle (in this case the defender choosing who to block with) is not CBI. You can change the character's right to be in play (aka, negate an ability that brought it from deck or reserve effectively removing it).
The ability to negate an opponent's search of the blocker has been around for quite some time, it's not new with the Dull or Darkness souls. Back when Disciples was new Philistines were a popular defense. There were rare occasions where the defender would use Philistine Outpost, grab and block with a generic Philistine and have it removed by My Lord and My God taking out the Outpost. There might even be a thread on the boards involving that if someone wanted to search it up.
The Dull Lost Soul can be a high reward LS if you're opponent plays an offense that triggers it a lot. But using the character you search out to block the same battle is risky business. You get one opportunity to choose the character you block with. If SoG or 3W negates the search, your character is removed by special ability and you can be left without a blocker. If the card that negates Dull and subsequently removes the blocker is not CBN (like Dominants are) then it will pass special initiative.
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So are we in agreement that:
1. Only one block may initially be presented ie ec searched with dull is negated ec goes away is near a rescue?
2. KoT can negate a Ehud choosing him to block in that choose the blocker abilities along with presenting an a blocker are not inherently cannot be interrupted? Would this then leave you without a blocker giving Ehud a free rescue or was KoT technically not presented allowing the blocker to present a different ec?
3. Characters banded from hand would go back to hand if the band is negated as in the other examples where they return to their previous locations?
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Yes.
No. Choose the blocker abilities used pre-block are CBI. See the REG entry.
No. My understanding is that the character goes to territory.
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Okay cool so third point and reason for the thread,
Why wouldn't the banded ecs from hand go back to hand? When all of the other ways they go back to their previous locations?
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I'm not able to do the research I need to adequately answer your question right now. It's possible there's no backing for that old method of play. That was the rule when I started playing but many things weren't codified then. I've wondered that myself a couple of times during games but never remembered to look into it later.
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Can you block with the evil character searched out by dull and negated "again" by some other means (Gates, unknown nation)?
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I'm not able to do the research I need to adequately answer your question right now. It's possible there's no backing for that old method of play. That was the rule when I started playing but many things weren't codified then. I've wondered that myself a couple of times during games but never remembered to look into it later.
I'd like to know if it is even a rule then as it seems like an exception which isn't in the reg?
It's kind of important now with all of the dual alignment and banding which is how it came up in a game. Assuming it will come up commonly ie conquer to war from hand
Thanks for the discussion as always!
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I'm not able to do the research I need to adequately answer your question right now. It's possible there's no backing for that old method of play. That was the rule when I started playing but many things weren't codified then. I've wondered that myself a couple of times during games but never remembered to look into it later.
I'd like to know if it is even a rule then as it seems like an exception which isn't in the reg?
It's kind of important now with all of the dual alignment and banding which is how it came up in a game. Assuming it will come up commonly ie conquer to war from hand
Thanks for the discussion as always!
I looked in the REG and found no basis to have the banded character go anywhere other than their previous location when a band is negated. I also looked back through old REG documents (2007 is the oldest one I have) and don't find a reference to the "go to territory" ruling or a reason for it.
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What about an enhancement searched out by dull. If I search stone of Thebez and play it to kill one of 2 hero's in battle. My opponent negates dull. What happens to stone? What about the fact that the ability triggered CBN or not? Could I negate my own dull in order to put an enhancement back in my deck on purpose to play it again later?
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Another example I could think of is if (for some reason) you use The Gates of Hell to add a demon into battle (as the first EC) and then it gets negated and discarded by Shipwreck. Would the defender be able to present another EC in this scenario?
You must be using a different Gates or a different Shipwreck than the rest of us, since that scenario seems impossible. ;)
Gabe mentioned Philly Outpost, which would be an applicable target for Shipwreck. If they blocked with an EC searched out by Outpost, and then the opponent used Shipwreck on Outpost, their character would return to deck and they would not get to block again.
What about an enhancement searched out by dull. If I search stone of Thebez and play it to kill one of 2 hero's in battle. My opponent negates dull. What happens to stone? What about the fact that the ability triggered CBN or not? Could I negate my own dull in order to put an enhancement back in my deck on purpose to play it again later?
I want to say the enhancement stays, mainly because of the logic of playing enhancements. Everyone knows that if ET plays AoCP preblock, and is blocked by KoT from hand, AoCP won't return to hand. Still, this seems different. For some reason, it makes perfect sense to me why negating Dull sends the searched, blocking evil character back to deck, but it seems wrong that doing so would send an EE back to deck after it's been played. Hmm... ???
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There used to be a note in the REG that CBN cards that had been played "stick" and weren't returned to deck if the draw was negated. I don't remember it ever being in any other entries, like search.
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cbn things are cbn.. lol play abilities are cbi that's in the reg
playing cards is not cbi so if the played enhancement was searched then the searching ability is negated there would be a cascade negate, unless they are cbi
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I've been talking with other elders about the way we handle CBN cards that are cascade negated. We haven't yet found a lot of documentation on this topic and the discussion is not over yet so please bear with us. We all share the same basic understanding of how the game handles these things though.
Tradition says that Enhancements and Dominants that are CBN stay in their present location even when cascade negated.
Example 1: Jeiel (1/1 white Hero) has initiative, plays Spirit as a Dove (no JtB in play) to get Son of God, still has initiative but plays Son of God, then uses initiative to play Blessings (negate all). Son of God does not go back to deck, it was played and remains in the discard pile (the Soul it rescued remains in the Land of Redemption).
Example 2: In Josiah's example above he used Dull to get Stone of Thebez (RA) and plays it on a Canaanite female making it CBN. If Dull is negated (SoG, 3 Woes, etc) Stone of Thebez stays in play on the female Canaanite.
Tradition says that characters which are CBN do NOT stay in in their current location if they are cascade negated (but the effect of their special ability remains).
Example 1: Messenger of Stan (Ap) band to Gomer (TexP) (no Hosea in play) who bands to King of Tyrus. KoT has negated Messengers band, but he stays in battle because Gomer banded to him which is CBN. Gomer on the other hand is kicked out of battle because of the cascade negate.
Example 2: AUTO draws and exchanges to deck for a judge. The Dull LS is triggered and it's owner picks Foreign Wives, then blocks with her making FW CBN protected from the opponent. If the Dull LS is negated, FW is returned to deck. The opponent did not target her but was able to circumvent the targeting by negating the ability the searched her out of the deck.
I'm sure this will raise more questions. Please ask them but don't expect answers right away. As I mentioned above we're doing our best to make sure this is well vetted.
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A situation came up that is related to this thread that I would like some clarification on...
My understanding: Once a card is played it stays..however this thread seems to indicate that is not always so...
Here is what happened (to the best of my memory)....
Chennaniah bands to Asaph. Music Leader is in Territory.
During the battle, my opponent searches setting off ML and I go after "You Will Remain" and Ethan.
You Will Remain is played in battle for numbers mostly and some insurance.
Since Red Dragon is in play...other enhancements are played but the critical one was "Magnificat" which negates Characters.
Red Dragon is set aside but Music Leader is also negated.
Ethan is in hand and goes back to deck..."You Will Remain" is on the table played on Asaph.
My Question:
What happens to "You Will Remain" as it relates to Music Leader getting negated?
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Play abilities are CBI, but it's commonly stated as "You can't unplay a card". Just playing You Will Remain during regular initiative should return it to deck. I'd argue that "Play abilities are CBI" doesn't really mean they're CBI, but that it's something more along the lines of CBP - you can interrupt and prevent a CBP card, and you can "unplay" a card played by a play ability by negating the ability that got it (draw/search/exchange). But just can't just return a card to hand by negating the play ability.
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TBH cascading comes across as pretty ridiculous to me.
I hate the idea of my opponent drawing 4 off TToD and then playing UK on david for the CBN band. Then I play three Woes to target TToD and the draw goes back, the UK goes to their hand. It gets even worse now because did they band to people they drew? Did souls come
Out on the draw that effected the battle? What order does everything go back? The rescuer is just supposed to remember? This stuff is so complicated it makes my head spin and frustrates me. It's a hard enough game to teach with out cascading.
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I've been talking with other elders about the way we handle CBN cards that are cascade negated. We haven't yet found a lot of documentation on this topic and the discussion is not over yet so please bear with us. We all share the same basic understanding of how the game handles these things though.
Tradition says that Enhancements and Dominants that are CBN stay in their present location even when cascade negated.
Example 1: Jeiel (1/1 white Hero) has initiative, plays Spirit as a Dove (no JtB in play) to get Son of God, still has initiative but plays Son of God, then uses initiative to play Blessings (negate all). Son of God does not go back to deck, it was played and remains in the discard pile (the Soul it rescued remains in the Land of Redemption).
Example 2: In Josiah's example above he used Dull to get Stone of Thebez (RA) and plays it on a Canaanite female making it CBN. If Dull is negated (SoG, 3 Woes, etc) Stone of Thebez stays in play on the female Canaanite.
Tradition says that characters which are CBN do NOT stay in in their current location if they are cascade negated (but the effect of their special ability remains).
Example 1: Messenger of Stan (Ap) band to Gomer (TexP) (no Hosea in play) who bands to King of Tyrus. KoT has negated Messengers band, but he stays in battle because Gomer banded to him which is CBN. Gomer on the other hand is kicked out of battle because of the cascade negate.
Example 2: AUTO draws and exchanges to deck for a judge. The Dull LS is triggered and it's owner picks Foreign Wives, then blocks with her making FW CBN protected from the opponent. If the Dull LS is negated, FW is returned to deck. The opponent did not target her but was able to circumvent the targeting by negating the ability the searched her out of the deck.
I'm sure this will raise more questions. Please ask them but don't expect answers right away. As I mentioned above we're doing our best to make sure this is well vetted.
In all fairness these questions seem to have been answered here
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Play abilities are CBI, but it's commonly stated as "You can't unplay a card". Just playing You Will Remain during regular initiative should return it to deck. I'd argue that "Play abilities are CBI" doesn't really mean they're CBI, but that it's something more along the lines of CBP - you can interrupt and prevent a CBP card, and you can "unplay" a card played by a play ability by negating the ability that got it (draw/search/exchange). But just can't just return a card to hand by negating the play ability.
You missed that You Will Remain was played on Asaph, who makes it CBN by evil. Tradition says that GEs played CBN "stick".
I agree with you that Play abilities aren't really CBI, but I disagree that they are more like CBP. They are CBI, except for when the card played via the Play ability was drawn or searched for and the draw/search is later negated. Then, in that one instance, CBI magically is not CBI, and even though the draw/search can't be undone because "something CBI" happened to the drawn/searched card, that card is cascade-negated, despite still being in battle and the draw/search not being undone.
TBH cascading comes across as pretty ridiculous to me.
I hate the idea of my opponent drawing 4 off TToD and then playing UK on david for the CBN band. Then I play three Woes to target TToD and the draw goes back, the UK goes to their hand.
UK stays in battle because it was played via a Play ability, which are CBI. And because it is CBN, which "sticks".
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There's an important distinction to remember with Soul Seeker's scenario. Asaph makes music stuff CBN by an evil card. In this case, ML is being negated by a good card so YWR returns to deck.
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They are CBI, except for when the card played via the Play ability was drawn or searched for and the draw/search is later negated. Then, in that one instance, CBI magically is not CBI, and even though the draw/search can't be undone because "something CBI" happened to the drawn/searched card, that card is cascade-negated, despite still being in battle and the draw/search not being undone.
This isn't a good understanding of what is going on. While it is true that you cannot cascade negate a played card simply by negating the ability that played it, having been played by a play ability does not confer any special status onto the played card. When you negate the search, it is not that you are interrupting a CBI ability, it is that you are negating a search ability and the play ability does not enter the equation at all.
Or, that would be true if we weren't treating cards with CBN abilities differently for no reason. I don't see a logical resolution in which either negating a search for a CBN card would still send that card back to location after it'd been played, or negating search/add to abilities never cascades.
All I know is I'm glad I've been around long enough to know when a source-level problem has come up before and the solution is well-reasoned, or is a tradition with no basis in rulings that's never been scrutinized.
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Thanks for all the responses. From what I'm reading, my opponent and I played the situation out the correct way. Also, I recognize that there was a faultiness in my thinking that a played card has an inherent CBI.