Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: spacy32 on July 14, 2015, 07:35:16 PM
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The people in this group are so funny. They say AUTO is too powerful. They keep making it that way. My newest discovery is the Simeon/AUTO/Moses Combo. In a real world, Moses would negate the band. AUTO would still work (ie the exchange works) because he cannot be negated but then you go and say his ability makes Simeon's band Cannot be negated. You just overpowered AUTO. I understand his draw and exchange works but Moses should still negate Simeon after the fact which would put Moses back in territory. I just haven't figured why the cards are being over thought.
On that note, If a card makes another card CBN (ie. Michael, Thomas, Joseph, Benjamin) why would you make their ability CBN. The ability on the card never says it cannot be negated. So we just made a few more cards overpowered. I just don't understand why people would complain about cards being too powerful and that we should get rid of the card or change the erata but if they weren't over thinking the abilities, they wouldn't be that powerful.
Rant over
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The people in this group are so funny. They say AUTO is too powerful. They keep making it that way. My newest discovery is the Simeon/AUTO/Moses Combo. In a real world, Moses would negate the band. AUTO would still work (ie the exchange works) because he cannot be negated but then you go and say his ability makes Simeon's band Cannot be negated. You just overpowered AUTO. I understand his draw and exchange works but Moses should still negate Simeon after the fact which would put Moses back in territory. I just haven't figured why the cards are being over thought.
AutO didn't make Simeon's band CBN, that is not at all what the ruling is. But why would negating Simeon return Moses? Simeon did not bring Moses into battle, AutO did. AutO is CBN, and to paraphrase the Ten Commandments of Redemption "Cannot be negated is cannot be negated. That puppy sticks." It's not being overthought, it's just the way the rules work. It may result in a powerful card, but we don't change how we rule a card (short of an errata) just because of power levels.
On that note, If a card makes another card CBN (ie. Michael, Thomas, Joseph, Benjamin) why would you make their ability CBN. The ability on the card never says it cannot be negated. So we just made a few more cards overpowered. I just don't understand why people would complain about cards being too powerful and that we should get rid of the card or change the erata but if they weren't over thinking the abilities, they wouldn't be that powerful.
By definition abilities that grant CBP/I/N status are themselves CBN. Otherwise, you get infinite loops and paradoxes that simply are not able to be resolved. We did not rule those particular cards to be CBN (or those particular abilities) just to make them powerful. We made a specific type of ability CBN because the alternative is a broken game.
TL;DR We didn't make rules just to make cards powerful. There are blanket rules in place that still have to be followed or are in place because to not have them breaks the game.
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On that note, If a card makes another card CBN (ie. Michael, Thomas, Joseph, Benjamin) why would you make their ability CBN.
This is not quite accurate. As Dayne mentions above, only the abilities that grant CBI/P/N are CBI/P/N, not the whole card. Joseph's search ability and his protect from discard ability are both negatable.
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AUTO's ability "You may draw 2 and exchange this Hero with a gold Judge in your hand, deck, territory, or discard pile. Protect Gideon from opponents. Cannot be negated."
It only says exchange this hero. If auto was brought into battle from a band ability that is not his then the exchange should work but Moses would negate the band ergo returning Moses to territory. then negate band is after AUTO's ability resolves ergo Moses should retreat. Everyone in this group
Msays one ability resolves then the other so after Auto resolves the Moses would negate. AUTO's ability was never negated so it worked but it never says the hero has to stay in battle. If i played a withdraw card, I know Gideon would be protected and Moses would negate it but by your logic i couldn't withdraw any other judge. You just created a loop.
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If you band in a CBN or cbi character then the band is negated the banded character returns to territory but their ability remains activated.
Simeon bands to AuTO (CBN) his ability happens now and what ever he exchanges too is in battle. If I exchange to Moses it is true that Simeon is negated, however AuTO's CBN ability has already been triggered and cannot be undone through negation so the judge (in this case Moses) remains in battle due to AuTO's ability not Simeon's.
I can understand not liking it but it's totally logical.
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AUTO's ability was never negated so it worked but it never says the hero has to stay in battle.
What is "it" that you are referring to? If Moses got kicked out of battle then that means AutO's ability did not "work" because it failed to exchange AutO with Moses.
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I think what's tripping him up is that if Simeon banded to AutO and then the battle became FBN, then AutO would be kicked out of battle. Therefore if Moses is exchanged for AutO and therefore taking his spot, then should he also be kicked out of battle when it becomes FBN?
I know that everyone else is making the right ruling, but I just wanted to explain perhaps why he is confused.
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I'm going to give another example that will maybe help you understand as well:
Let's have a character Awesome Prophet who has the ability "Band to any Hero. Cannot be negated." Simeon bands to him, then bands to Moses.
In this case, Awesome Prophet is kicked out, since Simeon brought him in and is negated. However, Moses will stay, because Awesome Prophet is CBN and therefore "that puppy sticks" even if the banding chain starter was negated.
Same situation here. AutO brought in Moses CBN. Moses was never targeted by Simeon, as the band is instant and already completed. Therefore, "that puppy" (being Moses in this case) "sticks."
Does that make more sense?
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Or if you prefer it as a real scenario instead of a hypothetical, Simeon to AutO/Moses is more like Crimson Gomer to Ananias to Sapphira, than Crimson Gomer to KoT.