Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Josh on July 15, 2011, 08:20:14 AM
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Revisting a classic combo... Asaph has an implied "This ability is CBN by evil cards" at the end of his ability (based on the discussion some weeks ago regarding the FBTN and CBP LS). So does that mean that Magnificat really isn't the awesome battlewinner when played on Asaph? Magnificat, being a good card, can negate Asaph's ability, which would in turn make it possible for an evil card to negate Magnificat?
Asaph (Pi)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: White • Ability: 6 / 6 • Class: None • Special Ability: Good Enhancements involving music cannot be negated by evil cards.
Magnificat (Di)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: White • Ability: 1 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate special abilities on characters. If used by a musician or N.T. female, set aside an Evil Character in battle for 2 turns.
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I was under the impression that any ability that causes a CBN status, is in itself CBN. So I would rule that the combo still works.
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I was under the impression that any ability that causes a CBN status, is in itself CBN. So I would rule that the combo still works.
That is true, but Asaph is only CBN against evil cards, so his ability (and any musical enhancements he plays) can be negated by a good or neutral card.
Caveat: This is true only for musical enhancements played *after* Magnificat. Once a card is played CBN you cannot negate it by any means.
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I'm still pretty sure ANY ability that makes other cards CBN... can NEVER be negated under any circumstance.
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cannot be negated means cannot be negated. you can never negate that ability. you can negate enhancements with good or neutral cards, but you cannot negate them with evil cards. if you were to play blessing on him, then you would negate all other enhancements played on asaph, because you are negating enhancements with a good card, but the ability itself can never be negated
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cannot be negated means cannot be negated.
That's not the issue here. The question is whether an ability granting CBN with a restriction (evil cards, in this case) also has that restriction upon its own CBN-ness, or whether the CBN is CBN by everything.
I'm inclined to agree with MJB based on how I've seen it ruled/posted about in the past.
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Ok, here is what I remember from the FBTN vs. CBP lost souls.
If the FBTN LS is in play first, and the CBP LS is drawn, FBTN still prevents CBP, since CBP says "...first evil enhancement CBP by good cards", and the implied "This ability is CBP" has the same requirements as its ability - meaning the CBP LS cannot be prevented by good cards. FBTN LS is a neutral card, so it can prevent the CBP LS.
That is the reasoning that makes me thing Magnificat negates Asaph's ability. Asaph says "CBN by evil cards" and Magnificat is a good card.
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That is true, but Asaph is only CBN against evil cards, so his ability (and any musical enhancements he plays) can be negated by a good or neutral card.
Good cards do not negate Asaph's ability, only enhancements that he plays. You can not negate a CBN-granting ability under any circumstance.
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Ok, here is what I remember from the FBTN vs. CBP lost souls.
If the FBTN LS is in play first, and the CBP LS is drawn, FBTN still prevents CBP, since CBP says "...first evil enhancement CBP by good cards", and the implied "This ability is CBP" has the same requirements as its ability - meaning the CBP LS cannot be prevented by good cards. FBTN LS is a neutral card, so it can prevent the CBP LS.
Could you link this ruling? I don't see how the FBTN LS can stop the CBP Lost Soul.
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http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/fbtn-lost-soul-vs-cannot-be-prevented-lost-soul/ (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/fbtn-lost-soul-vs-cannot-be-prevented-lost-soul/)
I believe this is the ruling on the FBTN LS vs. CBP LS.
The way I see it, by the time Magnificat is played (i.e., it's special ability has activated and completed), Asaph's ability is negated, so an evil card can negate Magnificat.
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Scenario time!
I RA Asaph. They block with Fallen Warrior (who has defeated Heman, so he's 4/4), and they play Bringing Fear. I play Magnificat.
I RA Asaph. They block with Fallen Warrior (who has defeated Ethan, so he's 7/7). I play Magnificat. They play Bringing Fear.
In the first scenario, I would rule that Magnificat works. The second, I would rule that Bringing Fear negates Magnificat. This would essentially make Asaph's ability into a CBP ability.
:2cents:
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I still STRONGLY oppose that ruling.
The ability to make something CBN should not be able to be negated, period. Sure, in this case, you could play an enhancement on asaph, and then negate that enhancement yourself, but you should not be able to negate Asaphs ability.
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Cannot be negated means Cannot (EVER) be Negated. Cards that are Cannot be Negated cannot be indirectly negated. Cards that are drawn that are CBN and then played do not get put back into the deck if the draw is negated. I would find it hard to believe that you could indirectly negate a CBN ability. That flies against every written rule of CBN.
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Oh, so I was a bit wrong. I would say when Magnificat is played it's CBN, and it's status cannot change according to the CBP LS thread.
I don't like it, but that's the way it is.
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Oh, so I was a bit wrong. I would say when Magnificat is played it's CBN, and it's status cannot change according to the CBP LS thread.
I agree with this, but what about any cards Asaph plays *after* Magnificat?
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Cannot be negated means Cannot (EVER) be Negated. Cards that are Cannot be Negated cannot be indirectly negated. Cards that are drawn that are CBN and then played do not get put back into the deck if the draw is negated. I would find it hard to believe that you could indirectly negate a CBN ability. That flies against every written rule of CBN.
Did you read the FBTN LS vs CBP LS ruling? Asaph's ability says "Good enhancements involving music cannot be negated by evil cards". When an ability assigns CBN/CBP/CBI to a set of special abilities, that ability is also CBN/CBP/CBI by the same set of abilities. Which means that Asaph has an implied "This cannot be negated by an evil card" at the end of his ability.
Well, Magnificat is a good card. So it can negate Asaph's ability, if you apply the same logic from the FBTN and CBP LS discussion.
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Is there really a discussion about if Magnificat can negate Asaph? Of course it can. A strict reading of the cards confirms that. IMO, this should have been over as soon as it started.
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Oh, so I was a bit wrong. I would say when Magnificat is played it's CBN, and it's status cannot change according to the CBP LS thread.
I agree with this, but what about any cards Asaph plays *after* Magnificat?
Those would be negatable.
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Is there really a discussion about if Magnificat can negate Asaph? Of course it can. A strict reading of the cards confirms that. IMO, this should have been over as soon as it started.
Probably, but everyone I've ever played with (for both my decks and theirs) has played that Magnificat is CBN on Asaph.
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Is there really a discussion about if Magnificat can negate Asaph? Of course it can. A strict reading of the cards confirms that. IMO, this should have been over as soon as it started.
Probably, but everyone I've ever played with (for both my decks and theirs) has played that Magnificat is CBN on Asaph.
Because it is. The status of it cannot change. When it's played, it's CBN by evil, so it stays CBN by evil. All musical enhancements afterwards are negatable though.
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Because it is. The status of it cannot change. When it's played, it's CBN by evil, so it stays CBN by evil. All musical enhancements afterwards are negatable though.
Ok, you say "when it is played" it is CBN. What is the definition of "played"? Because if Magnificat is not "played" until its special ability has been carried out, at that point Asaph has already been negated.
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I still say cards played after Magnificat are CBN by evil as well.
Examples:
Asaph plays Magnificat, and then plays Protection of Angels, both enhancements should CBN by evil cards, as Magnificat does not negate enhancements.
Asaph plays Magnificat, and then plays Blessings, Magnificat would be negated.
You should never be able to negate an ability that grants CBN powers. So, Asaph can negate his own enhancements, but should not be able to negate his own ability.
*EDIT*
The reason this situation is so weird... is because theres only 3 cards in the game that grant Semi-CBN/P to OTHER cards.
Asaph
CBP Lost Soul
and Trap of the Devil
All other CBN/I/P by X cards only grant themselves that ability, not other cards...
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You should never be able to negate an ability that grants CBN powers. So, Asaph can negate his own enhancements, but should not be able to negate his own ability.
Well, he can negate his own ability. I don't like it, but that's the ruling that was given in the CBP LS thread.
The ability activates after it is played. It wouldn't make sense otherwise. The only exception is when you're losing the battle by removal and you play an interrupt, in which case it would be essentially simultaneous, but be considered "played" afterwards, since interrupts jam themselves in between a million things...
At least, that's my understanding of it. INE.