Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: lightningninja on September 03, 2011, 02:50:10 PM
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Well I know it is under discussion, but it has been ruled that if you have Asahel in battle, and play grapes, he will remain in battle and it's basically an auto-win.
Should A New Beginning have this same effect? They are both shuffle abilities, and both "return" characters to your deck. So if I banded armorbearer to Asahel, choose Leviathan (I have initiative), and played ANB, Asahel should remain in battle, right?
Asahel
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Red • Ability: 5 / 4 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: May band to an O.T. warrior class human Hero or may choose opponent's male human Evil Character to block. Protect Asahel from withdraw and return abilities.
Grapes of Wrath
Type: Lamb • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard an evil card in battle to shuffle all remaining characters in battle into owners’ decks. If the current rescuer doesn't have the most Redeemed Souls, he may begin a new battle. • Errata: Discard an evil card in battle to shuffle [return] all remaining characters in battle into owners’ decks. If no Heroes remain in battle and the current rescuer doesn't have the most Redeemed Souls, he may begin a new battle.
A New Beginning
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: 4 / 5 • Class: None • Special Ability: ALL players shuffle ALL cards in the field of play, set-aside areas and their hands back into their draw pile. Only cards in Land of Redemption and discard piles remain. ALL players Draw 8 new cards. Holder may begin a new turn. • Errata: If making a rescue attempt, remove this card from the game to shuffle [return] all cards in play, set aside areas, and hands into decks. End the battle. All players draw 8. End the turn. Begin a new turn.
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They are now ruling shuffle is not a return ability, so this combo no longer works. No announcement was made about it though as far as I know.
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Ok. The reason I asked was because Prof last stated that Asahel+Grapes works for now, but don't expect it to for long. So will ANB work for now, but not for long?
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It doesn't work at all. For some reason, it hasn't posted as an official change. Even if it isn't completely official yet, rule that it does not work, because that's how it will be ruled in the future.
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Ok. But what about Grapes having an errata that specifically states "return?" Is that going to be changed?
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Return is in parentheses to clarify shuffle as a return ability. That is going to be changed with the new ruling. That's the exact part of this question that is going to change.
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Ok, thanks. I didn't know that.
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More importantly, you cannot choose Leviathan with Asahel, because he is not human, so all this discussion is moot.
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Ok, so he chose Saph.
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Curses, foiled again!
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Because a ruling is likely to be made in the future does not mean we go by it now. Until it's official, Asahel will ride out ANB and win a soul, provided Thorns is in play or the souls are protected from shuffle some other way.
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Because a ruling is likely to be made in the future does not mean we go by it now. Until it's official, Asahel will ride out ANB and win a soul, provided Thorns is in play or the souls are protected from shuffle some other way.
Oh, awesome. Thanks.
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Because a ruling is likely to be made in the future does not mean we go by it now. Until it's official, Asahel will ride out ANB and win a soul, provided Thorns is in play or the souls are protected from shuffle some other way.
It's not like "likely to be made in the future." It's been confirmed to be the ruling, but has not been officially announced in a ruling thread, and because of where we are in the tournament season, there's no reason to believe that it will not be announced soon.
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But last I heard, there was a post from Prof Underwood saying, until you hear the new ruling, play that Asahel will win the battle, but don't get too comfortable with it. That doesn't sound like it's "going to be made" for sure.
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Because a ruling is likely to be made in the future does not mean we go by it now. Until it's official, Asahel will ride out ANB and win a soul, provided Thorns is in play or the souls are protected from shuffle some other way.
Oh, awesome. Thanks.
But while this seems to be technically legal for now, Asahel still falls victim to the "only win one LS per turn" so while he would win the LS after ANB he would be able to begin a new turn but not for a RA.
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An ability that “shuffles” cards “into” a deck is a “return to deck” ability.
“Release” means “return to territory” and defaults to returning the card to its owner's territory unless specified otherwise.
“Refuses to block” is the same as “return to territory.” and targets characters that are in battle.
“Retreat” and “Withdraw” are “return to territory” and target characters that are in battle.
(from new REG)
Can't tell if this wasn't updated or serious.
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Even if Asahel doesn't shuffle, he still can't rescue a soul.
A New Beginning (Pa)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: 4 / 5 • Class: None • Special Ability: ALL players shuffle ALL cards in the field of play, set-aside areas and their hands back into their draw pile. Only cards in Land of Redemption and discard piles remain. ALL players Draw 8 new cards. Holder may begin a new turn. • Errata: If making a rescue attempt, remove this card from the game to shuffle [return] all cards in play, set aside areas, and hands into decks. End the battle. All players draw 8. End the turn. Begin a new turn. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 8:15-17 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Ultra Rare)
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Even if Asahel doesn't shuffle, he still can't rescue a soul.
A New Beginning (Pa)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: 4 / 5 • Class: None • Special Ability: ALL players shuffle ALL cards in the field of play, set-aside areas and their hands back into their draw pile. Only cards in Land of Redemption and discard piles remain. ALL players Draw 8 new cards. Holder may begin a new turn. • Errata: If making a rescue attempt, remove this card from the game to shuffle [return] all cards in play, set aside areas, and hands into decks. End the battle. All players draw 8. End the turn. Begin a new turn. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 8:15-17 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Ultra Rare)
End the battle doesn't mean that lost souls can be rescued. It only means that nothing else can be played so whoever is winning at that point wins.
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Right, duh. I just had a feeling this had been brought up before and I got a similar answer.
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End the battle doesn't mean that lost souls can not be rescued. It only means that nothing else can be played so whoever is winning at that point wins.
Fixed to avoid confusion from later readers. ;D
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Well I know it is under discussion, but it has been ruled that if you have Asahel in battle, and play grapes, he will remain in battle and it's basically an auto-win.
Should A New Beginning have this same effect? They are both shuffle abilities, and both "return" characters to your deck. So if I banded armorbearer to Asahel, choose Leviathan (I have initiative), and played ANB, Asahel should remain in battle, right?
If this did or would have came up at Nationals it would have been ruled that Asahel does not rescue a lost soul in either situation and it should be ruled that way now.
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Can I get an elder to confirm that? Especially with the quote from the new REG...
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The traditional definition of "shuffle" has put it as a subcategory of "return", which means that the traditional ruling of Asahel+Grapes would leave Asahel in battle.
I think we are really close to having a new official ruling regarding the relationships between "shuffle" and "return" (as well as "withdraw" and a couple other related abilities). When that is announced, the traditional ruling on Asahel+Grapes is most likely to get reversed.
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But as for now, he is protected from shuffle abilities, yes?
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But as for now, he is protected from shuffle abilities, yes?
No, Bryon ruled that it didn't work last year when this first came up. It still doesn't work.
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But as for now, he is protected from shuffle abilities, yes?
In spite of the categories (or subcategories) of varying abilities, the ruling is based off the wording. "Shuffle" and "return" are different abilities. Whether they should have been, are now, or will be later has been the subject of much debate. I look forward to a speedy end to that debate with a definitive, logical ruling based on the new REG.
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But as for now, he is protected from shuffle abilities, yes?
No, Bryon ruled that it didn't work last year when this first came up. It still doesn't work.
Ruling that Asahel is NOT protected contradicts the current definitions in the REG. Although I completely support this coming change, if you are going to go ahead and say that it's changing, can you post a link to Bryon's ruling and the "other elder" approval of it so that we can have something "official" to overrule the REG?
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Well I think Gabe counts as the other Elder, but yeah a link would be nice. I believe you though. ::)
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Ruling that Asahel is NOT protected contradicts the current definitions in the REG.
However, it does not contradict the old REG, which is what the old ruling was based on (IMO). I was under the impression that the new ruling will somehow be related to the new REG.
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Well I think Gabe counts as the other Elder, but yeah a link would be nice.
Gabe certainly would count as another Elder, but I don't remember whether he posted on that old thread of Bryon's in support of the ruling.
However, it does not contradict the old REG, which is what the old ruling was based on (IMO).
This is another part of the problem. The ruling that Gabe is talking about came out back before the new REG came out. Therefore, it would seem that the new REG would supersede that old ruling. This is another reason why it is important for there to be updated Elder confirmation that this ruling is actually changing.
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This is another part of the problem. The ruling that Gabe is talking about came out back before the new REG came out. Therefore, it would seem that the new REG would supersede that old ruling. This is another reason why it is important for there to be updated Elder confirmation that this ruling is actually changing.
I guess Mr. Fox is directing my traffic, then. This was my understanding of the progression:
1. Many back-and-forth discussions about whether Asahel stays out after Grapes.
2. Asahel is ruled to not stay out, based on the old REG.
3. Prof Underwood makes cryptic comment about future changes to the ruling.
4. New REG comes out, but we are told to keep the old ruling until further notice.
5. Further notice has not arrived, and everybody is confused.
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1. Many back-and-forth discussions about whether Asahel stays out after Grapes.
2. Asahel is ruled to not stay out, based on the old REG.
3. Prof Underwood makes cryptic comment about future changes to the ruling.
4. New REG comes out, but we are told to keep the old ruling until further notice.
5. Further notice has not arrived, and everybody is confused.
I guess much of this could just be due to misconceptions on my/your/others part. This was my understanding of the progression:
1. Shuffle had always been ruled as a subcategory of return.
2. Someone figured out that a combo could be made with Asahel + Grapes.
3. A thread was posted where Bryon indicated that it wouldn't work, but discussion continued.
4. Things were unclear for all of last year, and it was played differently in different parts of the country.
5. The elders discussed how to tighten up the definitions to deal with this and other problems.
6. The new REG comes out which seemed to support the parts of the country that were ruling that the combo worked.
7. At some point this result of the elder's discussion will be announced and the problems resolved.
8. After that, arguing and complaining about the new ruling ensues :)
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Things were never unclear last year. Asahel + Grapes worked. Then you said something would change, so most of us assumed that meant it wouldn't work.
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Things were never unclear last year. Asahel + Grapes worked.
This proves Prof U's point, because I have never ruled that Grapes + Asahel would work.
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So until that announcement is made, the combo works, yes?
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So until that announcement is made, the combo works, yes?
I really don't know how to answer that question. Any of the 3 answers below could work. I guess I lean toward #1.
1. Yes the combo works because the new REG supports it, and there hasn't been elder confirmation that it has changed.
2. No it doesn't work because the elders are going to announce later that it doesn't work so why get used to playing it now when you won't be able to count on it later.
3. It depends on what area of the country you live in. Since the elders haven't made an official announcement yet, tournament hosts should just continue ruling it the way that they have in the past.
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4. Grapes of Wrath is hereby banned in Florida.
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I've been trying to find a more recent thread on this ruling and errata. Just wondering if Asahel is protected from shuffle?
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Since I see that this was never answered, and it was posted during my prolonged absence from the boards, the answer is this: Asahel's protection only applies to withdraw abilities and return to hand abilities. All other abilities that may have similar effects (such as shuffle and topdeck/underdeck) are neither withdraw nor return abilities, thus they will affect Asahel as normal.