Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: TimMierz on August 11, 2008, 03:35:45 PM
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King Hazael: "You may discard a gray brigade enhancement from hand to discard an O.T. Fortress or occupied Site. Opponent may discard one of his Artifacts instead."
Split Altar: "Shuffle all Artifacts of each opponent into owners' deck. You may play the next Enhancement. Cannot be negated."
Do the above cards only target active (in play) artifacts, or artifacts in the artifact pile as well?
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In discussion with Mike B. this weekend he told me that Split Altar targets the artifact pile as well as the active artifacts. (Redemption Commandment - All means All), I would assume that this holds true for the King as well.
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"All means all" doesn't mean much to me; Authority of Christ doesn't discard out-of-play Evil Characters, for instance. If the artifact pile is out of play, why does Split Altar target it?
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Even though they are face down and out of play, they are still artifacts. I also believe that the INTENT of split altar was to target them. However, I'm not a ruling authority.
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Sometimes context does mean something. King Hazael allows you to discard one of your artifacts, where artifacts is used in a plural sense. That would at first glance infer that you pick one from your artifact pile. That was intended. I didn't consider the possibility of draw pile or discard pile. That may need a default condition in the REG.
Split Altar is the card I see as more ambiguous. It is written with the artifact pile in mind. You are correct in stating that the artifact pile is in play. All artifacts in the pile are shuffled. Looking over all the cards that have an artifact in the SA, we typically use the word "active" or "face down" in special abilities to single out one in particular from a pile. Those that refer to an "artifact in play" assume the one activated.
Mike
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Miscellaneous (Default Conditions)
• Unless specified otherwise, Artifacts being targeted are located in the Artifact pile
Any problem with adding this to the REG?
Mike
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Aaron ("Protect your Tabernacle Artifacts from evil discard abilities while Aaron remains in play. May band to Miriam.") could protect Tabernacle Artifacts that are in play or out of play, right? Protect does not have limits to in play or out of play. Should this be limited to those that are activated?
Desecrate the Temple ("If used by a Babylonian, discard an Artifact, Temple or good Dominant in opponent's territory. If there are none, discard one from opponent's deck instead.") allows an artifact in your territory, which includes face up and face down in your artifact pile, right?
Mike
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I agree, since "active artifact" is never specified on those cards.
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Hey Mr. B,
Miscellaneous (Default Conditions)
• Unless specified otherwise, Artifacts being targeted are located in the Artifact pile
Any problem with adding this to the REG?
I know this may sound rather n00bish, but you might want to include something to the effect that active artifacts can be targeted even if they are not on the Artifact pile (e.g., Priestly Breastplate on a high priest in play).
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Hey Mr. B,
Miscellaneous (Default Conditions)
• Unless specified otherwise, Artifacts being targeted are located in the Artifact pile
Any problem with adding this to the REG?
I know this may sound rather n00bish, but you might want to include something to the effect that active artifacts can be targeted even if they are not on the Artifact pile (e.g., Priestly Breastplate on a high priest in play).
Yes, you are such a n00b. Not really... actually, that isn't always clear to people either. +1
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Hey,
The default condition for a discard ability is that the target has to be in play. If the default for targeting artifacts is artifacts in the Artifact Pile, (since cards in the artifact pile are usually not in play) then which default condition takes precident on a "discard an artifact" ability? Currently all default conditions apply to special abilities, not to card types. I think it would be best to keep it that way so that we avoid having the possibility for conflicting default conditions.
Shuffling all active artifacts (since they are the only ones in play) seems like an adequite ability for Split Altar. Not ideal, but adequite. If we want it to do more, we can always give it errata.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne
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Tim, Wasn't it you that suggested that Split Altar be reworded like a month ago? I think the best way to go is Errata it so that it explicitly states that it targets the artifact pile.
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Hey,
Tim, Wasn't it you that suggested that Split Altar be reworded like a month ago?
Yes, I believe I was.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne
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From the rumor mill, it seems Split Altar was intended to target the Artifact Pile as a way to get U&T shuffled back into a draw pile. There are many more benefits than just shuffling U&T, but alot of players despise U&T and, If memory serves, this was one of the 3 ways that face down artifacts were to be targeted by RoA.
Godspeed,
Mike
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Guess it would also target Covenants/Curses in the Artifact pile....
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If memory serves, this was one of the 3 ways that face down artifacts were to be targeted by RoA.
3 ways: 2 evil characters (crimson and pale green), and one evil enhancement (brown).
I never actually playtested Split Altar, and the wording on that one slipped by me. I assumed it shuffled the artifact piles, but according to the exact wording, it does not. Still, shuffling all opponents' active artifacts is very helpful. Many strategies count on certain artifacts being in active.
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So Split Altar does not shuffle the entire Art pile? I was under the assumption that it did. :(
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Well.... if all it does is shuffle the ACTIVE arts without negating them....
There's ANOTHER worthless promo. >.>
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but the crimson and PG are not SURE-FIRE ways to shuffle in U/T, just a random....at least Split would be able to ensure any of the unused arts are dealt with....Can we get a final ruling on this before I see if I want to use them still for type II or start selling my extras?
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Sometimes context does mean something. King Hazael allows you to discard one of your artifacts, where artifacts is used in a plural sense. That would at first glance infer that you pick one from your artifact pile. That was intended. I didn't consider the possibility of draw pile or discard pile. That may need a default condition in the REG.
Split Altar is the card I see as more ambiguous. It is written with the artifact pile in mind. You are correct in stating that the artifact pile is in play. All artifacts in the pile are shuffled. Looking over all the cards that have an artifact in the SA, we typically use the word "active" or "face down" in special abilities to single out one in particular from a pile. Those that refer to an "artifact in play" assume the one activated.
Mike
I'm definitely with Mike on this one. Either that, or an errata for Split Altar is in order.
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If my enhancement says "Discard an artifact," then that means "discard an artifact in play," right?
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Theres a difference between saying "Discard an artifact" and "Shuffle an artifact PILE."
The card is targeting that ENTIRE area.
Either change the way the game treats these cards, or im building a deck to abuse face down cards and A New Beginning, as it wouldnt be able to target them either, right?
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It says nothing about "piles."
If Wrath of Satan doesn't discard face down ECs, then Split Altar does not shuffle face down artifacts.
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What about ANB?
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Hey,
What about ANB?
A New Beginning has never shuffled inactive artifacts ;-).
"Only cards in Land of Redemption and discard piles remain."
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne
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It says nothing about "piles."
If Wrath of Satan doesn't discard face down ECs, then Split Altar does not shuffle face down artifacts.
Wrath of Satan doesn't discard face down EC's but not for the reason you're thinking.
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So... ANB doesnt shuffle the arts because they are "out of play?"
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Hey,
While I agree with this, I don't think it would be good for the game if Split Altar is played as-is. It needs errata. For crying out loud, Lying unto God is a better card.
While Split Altar may not be the best card, it is still a very good one as is. Especially in Type 2 where it is becoming more and more common to see people activating multiple artifacts, both to take advantage of Zerubable's Temple, High Priests Palace, etc and to get arround Captured Ark. The ability to get rid of all active artifacts paired with the ability to get rid of all active fortresses (Romans Destroy Jerusalem) creates an A New Beginning type of "clear the board effect" while not disrupting what you're trying to build up to. Oh, and it can't be negated.
So... ANB doesnt shuffle the arts because they are "out of play?"
Based on the "Only cards in Land of Redemption and discard piles remain." phrase on A New Beginning it will be easy to give it "play as" to include face down types of cards like inactive artifacts if necessary.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne
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Does a card that discards any card from territory allow you to discard a face-down artifact?
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I'm very disappointed that Split Altar is not presently allowed to shuffle Artifact piles. I'm in favor of issuing an errata so the card can be played as originally intended.
It's also how many players interpret it anyways. Aside from the people who have voiced their opinion on this thread, I know that Claude and Christian Fong both argued that it shuffled the pile as well.
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I'm very disappointed that Split Altar is not presently allowed to shuffle Artifact piles. I'm in favor of issuing an errata so the card can be played as originally intended.
I agree, but Mike did say that it does shuffle the Artifact piles. Bryon then said it does not. Who is making the official ruling here? If Bryon prevails, then I say errata the card and be done with it.
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I also assumed it shuffled the artifact pile because it says "shuffles ALL artifacts..." which i thought targeted ALL the oppenent had :P
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I also assumed it shuffled the artifact pile because it says "shuffles ALL artifacts..." which i thought targeted ALL the oppenent had :P
Oh then Split Altar stinks.
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Yeah I'm disappointed... I thought it nuked U&T and now it wont...
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Not to mention we just got another useless silver enhancement.
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When you use Desecrate the Temple or Abomination of Desolation to discard a face-down artifact, do you choose at random?
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Uhh... can Abomination of Desolation target face down arts?
I thought this whole thread just implied you cant target them UNLESS it specifies "Face Down Artifacts"
That is a good question though... Could a player just memorize which card U&T was, and when they pick the face down art, they just hit that one?
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Not to mention we just got another useless silver enhancement.
Silver? Isn't Split Altar Green?
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it's probably red...no wait, blue, yes definitely blue, unless it's clear....OOOOO!!! All hail clear brigade!!! ;D ;D
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Hmm... Actually... I was thinking of Angelic Advice, but now that I read it....
Shuffle all Artifact piles in play back into each players' draw pile. Active artifacts are shuffled but not negated.
This is how Split Altar SHOULD have been written.
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So true my friend so true.
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Hey,
Ooh! I see an easy solution, just use Angelic Advice on Michael. Then you have a cannot be negated get rid of their entire artifact pile...isn't that what all of you are wanting Split Altar to be. To think, you didn't even have to wait for the new card to do this, you could have been doing it since Apostles.
My favorite way to shut down Urim and Thumim is to get rid of all of their high priests :D. Of course, I usually just let them look, becasue I don't really care all that much if they know what's in my hand anyway.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne
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I have been doing this since apostles.. I later took Angelic advice out because it was an unnecessary piece of fluff that rarely got used.
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So is this ever going to get a conclusive ruling/errata/whatever? Or at least a note to let us know the bigwigs are discussing it on their "secret" board?
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I guess not... :-\
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Still waiting on at least a "Yes we're discussing this". This can't stay in limbo forever.
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Still waiting on at least a "Yes we're discussing this". This can't stay in limbo forever.
You'd be surprised how long limbo can take if you have a lot of people.
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Still waiting on at least a "Yes we're discussing this". This can't stay in limbo forever.
You'd be surprised how long limbo can take if you have a lot of people.
I'll admit it. I lol'd.
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Hey,
I never actually playtested Split Altar, and the wording on that one slipped by me. I assumed it shuffled the artifact piles, but according to the exact wording, it does not. Still, shuffling all opponents' active artifacts is very helpful.
I suggest we all consider this the "official" ruling for now.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne
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I support (an errata)
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Hey,
I support (an errata)
I highly doubt you will get one. I don't know that we have ever given a card errata for the sake of making it more playable.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne
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Yeah, I know.
There goes another worthless promo.
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There goes another worthless promo.
Please send all those worthless promos to me. PM me for my address or check my trade thread to get what you really wanted.
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Sorry, I'm a collector, but I was just commenting that the promo was fairly worthless game-wise currently IMO.
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Yes, I spoke with Kevin Shride, who spoke with Bryon, and Split Altar will be getting errata. I have no idea why none of the official rulings guys haven't posted this news yet, but there seems to be a consistent dearth of official rulings lately.
At any rate, this card will end up being played as intended, not as written. Let the masses rejoice! :D
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and there was much rejoicing...
yay...
;D ;D ;D ;D
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The first piece of errata to make a card stronger, rather than weaker. I hope the trend doesn't continue...[/spoilsport]
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Not so much of "more powerful" and more of "As the card was SUPPOSED to be written"
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Not so much of "more powerful" and more of "As the card was SUPPOSED to be written"
Off the top of my head, Love, Household Idols, the NT and */4 Lost Souls, and possibly Tartaros probably do not work as initially intended. They didn't receive errata.
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how so in each case?
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Love: "If played on a Hero of */5 or less, Hero gains */10 for remainder of the battle."
It's very unlikely that the card meant to re-add the Hero's strength. It likely meant 0/10. It wasn't given errata to make it as intended.
Household Idols: Original SA: "Heroes may not band. Good banding cards have no effect."
It's very unlikely that the card meant to prohibit Heroes with banding abilities from entering battle, while allowing Transfiguration to work. It wasn't given errata to make it as intended ("Negate banding of Heroes. Protect Heroes from good banding abilities.").
The NT and */4 Souls were not intended to prohibit dominant rescue. They weren't given errata to make them as intended ("This soul is protected from rescue except by a dominant or an NT Hero/Hero of */4 or higher.")
Tartaros is less clear to me, but I still believe that it was intended to allow you to put your own demons in Tartaros when they were discarded by anyone.
Gifts of the Magi, as well, was probably not intended to let you draw when you force him to draw, like with Hur. It wasn't given errata to work similarly to Rain Becomes Dust.
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Hey,
Cards have been errataed in the past to make them stronger. The Rabshakeh Atacks and Joab promo come to mind. But the reason they received errata is because as written they were borderline absurd.
No card so far in the game has been errataed for the purpose of playing it as intended. It has been suggested multiple times but has never happened. I'm with Tim here (I think) in seriously hoping this doesn't happen.
In addition to the cards Tim has listed a couple other notable cards that are not played as intended are A New Beginning and Ethiopian Treasurer. Playing cards as intended would make Split Altar more useful but would not be good for the game as a whole.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne (http://www.freewebs.com/redemptionne)
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No card so far in the game has been errataed for the purpose of playing it as intended.
Holy Grail immediately comes to mind. It was never intended to let you convert an EC in battle, but as written, that's what it does. Therefore, it was eratta'd to make it play as intended.
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Hey,
Holy Grail was errataed because it would be _way_ too powerful if you could use it in battle. Not because it was being played differently than was intended.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne (http://www.freewebs.com/redemptionne)
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I didn't group cards like A Child Is Born and The Rabshakeh Attacks into that, because they were clearly misprints, not wording changes. Joab, as far as every list that I've seen says, Joab does not have errata (the definition for "Mentioned in I and II Samuel" just happens to allow either instead of requiring both). I'm not sure what the original intent of Holy Grail is, but it was changed for its power, not for intent.
Good call also on ET, also.
So in short, yes, I agree with Tim that changing the way cards are played to make them "more usable" would be a shift that is not good for the game.
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Hey,
Holy Grail was errataed because it would be _way_ too powerful if you could use it in battle. Not because it was being played differently than was intended.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne (http://www.freewebs.com/redemptionne)
It was both. People were using it in battle, which was not intended and too powerful. Therefore, Holy Grail was being used differently than intended.
And at any rate, Kevin told me that there was no way they were going to allow a National Promo to become as useless as Angelic Advice simply because it wasn't proofread properly. They goofed, so they're correcting that mistake. There's nothing crazy or "bad for the game" about that.
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Angelic Advice shuffles your own artifact pile too, making it much, much worse than Split Altar, even excepting the CBN and the ability to play another card.
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Hey,
And at any rate, Kevin told me that there was no way they were going to allow a National Promo to become as useless as Angelic Advice simply because it wasn't proofread properly. They goofed, so they're correcting that mistake. There's nothing crazy or "bad for the game" about that.
Does that mean Mary's Prophetic Act will be getting errata too?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne (http://www.freewebs.com/redemptionne)
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And at any rate, Kevin told me that there was no way they were going to allow a National Promo to become as useless as Angelic Advice simply because it wasn't proofread properly. They goofed, so they're correcting that mistake. There's nothing crazy or "bad for the game" about that.
Does that mean Mary's Prophetic Act will be getting errata too?
Elijah could use a skosh of a bump also. Just errata his SA to be non-interruptible or something.
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Does that mean Mary's Prophetic Act will be getting errata too?
No, because there are no proofreading errors on the card. It works exactly as intended.